duke, uva, cornell, or retake

[DankHill]

true southerners [...] Florida

lol

otherwise great post

I didn't know any other way to describe people who'd prefer the FL market lol.

My (outsider's) impression is that Northern Florida is very much like the deep South, while southern Florida is more closely connected with Latin America, culturally and economically.

[DankHill]

I guess my trepidation in terms of choosing Duke derives from my aversion to NYC biglaw. I get the sense that UVA simply does better in terms of placement in non-NYC biglaw. Clearly, there's some (although maybe not a huge) edge for UVA over Duke in terms of DC. I also get the sense (per the existence of groups like West Coast Wahoos and Lone Star Law) that UVA does well in placing its grads into CA/TX.

If I'm off-base here, please let me know. I would hate to waste 20-35K for basically the same outcomes.

[64Fl]

I guess my trepidation in terms of choosing Duke derives from my aversion to NYC biglaw. I get the sense that UVA simply does better in terms of placement in non-NYC biglaw. Clearly, there's some (although maybe not a huge) edge for UVA over Duke in terms of DC. I also get the sense (per the existence of groups like West Coast Wahoos and Lone Star Law) that UVA does well in placing its grads into CA/TX.

If I'm off-base here, please let me know. I would hate to waste 20-35K for basically the same outcomes.

I think you're a little off base here.

Texas:

• UVA: 9.9%
• Duke: 10.7%

California

• UVA: 6.0%
• Duke: 6.0%

Really think Duke captures 95% of the non-NYC biglaw outcomes that UVA offers for a considerable discount. FWIW, I didn't attend Duke or UVA, so I have no alma mater horse in this race.

[waldorf]

Would probably go to Duke. But UVA is cool too.

[DankHill]

I guess my trepidation in terms of choosing Duke derives from my aversion to NYC biglaw. I get the sense that UVA simply does better in terms of placement in non-NYC biglaw. Clearly, there's some (although maybe not a huge) edge for UVA over Duke in terms of DC. I also get the sense (per the existence of groups like West Coast Wahoos and Lone Star Law) that UVA does well in placing its grads into CA/TX.

If I'm off-base here, please let me know. I would hate to waste 20-35K for basically the same outcomes.

I think you're a little off base here.

Texas:

• UVA: 9.9%
• Duke: 10.7%

California

• UVA: 6.0%
• Duke: 6.0%

Really think Duke captures 95% of the non-NYC biglaw outcomes that UVA offers for a considerable discount. FWIW, I didn't attend Duke or UVA, so I have no alma mater horse in this race.

Thank you for your input. Earlier, you alluded to the ability to pay off 70K in loans in one year. Is that really possible? I honestly feel like this is something that 0Ls say all the time but can never follow through with b/c of the sacrifices involved, so it was interesting to hear it from someone more senior.

[DankHill]

Would probably go to Duke. But UVA is cool too.

Don't mean to press (and feel free to ignore this), but could you provide a basis for this judgment?

[waldorf]

Would probably go to Duke. But UVA is cool too.

Don't mean to press (and feel free to ignore this), but could you provide a basis for this judgment?

It’s the same cost of attendance for you, and they’re basically interchangeable schools in my experience. My friends at Duke all had a great time in law school. But my friends at UVA did as well so

Either school for $110k is a good deal.

[DankHill]

Would probably go to Duke. But UVA is cool too.

Don't mean to press (and feel free to ignore this), but could you provide a basis for this judgment?

It’s the same cost of attendance for you, and they’re basically interchangeable schools in my experience. My friends at Duke all had a great time in law school. But my friends at UVA did as well so

Either school for $110k is a good deal.

Sorry, should have updated the original post. Duke recently came back in with a higher scholarship offer. COA will now be in the range of 75-90K

[waldorf]

Would probably go to Duke. But UVA is cool too.

Don't mean to press (and feel free to ignore this), but could you provide a basis for this judgment?

It’s the same cost of attendance for you, and they’re basically interchangeable schools in my experience. My friends at Duke all had a great time in law school. But my friends at UVA did as well so

Either school for $110k is a good deal.

Sorry, should have updated the original post. Duke recently came back in with a higher scholarship offer. COA will now be in the range of 75-90K

Oh I would definitely go to Duke then. 75k is hardly anything.

[64Fl]

Thank you for your input. Earlier, you alluded to the ability to pay off 70K in loans in one year. Is that really possible? I honestly feel like this is something that 0Ls say all the time but can never follow through with b/c of the sacrifices involved, so it was interesting to hear it from someone more senior.

I'm on track to pay back $85,000 my first twelve months in practice (already knocked out $43,000) while maxing out my 401k, and I don't live like a monk. I basically went on smartasset and typed in $50,000/yr. for Chicago. That gave me $39k, and I decided that's what I'll live on for the year with every other penny going towards my loans. After maxing out my 401k, $190,000 is $118,859. Less $39k, and that's $80k. I also threw in a good chunk of my stub year tax refund for an additional $5k. If you can't survive off $39k as a single person (outside of the Bay/NYC), I think you're doing something wrong. You won't live glamorously, but you can get a fine 1 bedroom in a good part of town in DC, eat out at reasonably priced restaurants, and buy a few things. I realize D.C. is more expensive than Chicago, so I gave you some more breathing room and went with $70k. Where people run into problems paying back their loans quickly is with a few things: (1) buying an expensive vehicle (no, you should not buy a $40,000 Tesla, even if you want to (looking at myself here)), (2) spending way too much on apartments (I know someone in my class who is now paying $3,000/mo. for rent, which they can totally swing, but it also puts them back $15,000/yr. compared to me), and (3) upgrading their lifestyle in terms of general consumption ($3000 vacations, $500 concert tickets, $100 clothes, $80 meals, and $30 wine add up).

ETA: It also helps that I'm a simple man who is terrified of his own debt.

[DankHill]

Thank you for your input. Earlier, you alluded to the ability to pay off 70K in loans in one year. Is that really possible? I honestly feel like this is something that 0Ls say all the time but can never follow through with b/c of the sacrifices involved, so it was interesting to hear it from someone more senior.

I'm on track to pay back $85,000 my first twelve months in practice (already knocked out $43,000) while maxing out my 401k, and I don't live like a monk. I basically went on smartasset and typed in $50,000/yr. for Chicago. That gave me $39k, and I decided that's what I'll live on for the year with every other penny going towards my loans. After maxing out my 401k, $190,000 is $118,859. Less $39k, and that's $80k. I also threw in a good chunk of my stub year tax refund for an additional $5k. If you can't survive off $39k as a single person (outside of the Bay/NYC), I think you're doing something wrong. You won't live glamorously, but you can get a fine 1 bedroom in a good part of town in DC, eat out at reasonably priced restaurants, and buy a few things. I realize D.C. is more expensive than Chicago, so I gave you some more breathing room and went with $70k. Where people run into problems paying back their loans quickly is with a few things: (1) buying an expensive vehicle (no, you should not buy a $40,000 Tesla, even if you want to (looking at myself here)), (2) spending way too much on apartments (I know someone in my class who is now paying $3,000/mo. for rent, which they can totally swing, but it also puts them back $15,000/yr. compared to me), and (3) upgrading their lifestyle in terms of general consumption ($3000 vacations, $500 concert tickets, $100 clothes, $80 meals, and $30 wine add up).

ETA: It also helps that I'm a simple man who is terrified of his own debt.

That's very impressive - congratulations. I currently live the coors light, domino's pizza, "fringe class" lifestyle (if anyone is a fan of Always Sunny), but I can't help but think there will be some lifestyle creep eventually.

[Slytherpuff]

I think $60-65k is more realistic for your first year in big law if you're in DC (if you're in NY, I'd say $60k). $70k is really pushing it unless you have roommates and plan to never eat out. 64Fl is not fully factoring in the huge difference in cost of living between Chicago and DC.

And at some point you might want to check out some of the loan/finance threads in the Lounge, since there are few different schools of thought when it comes to paying off loans. I'm team "throw all my money at student loans" (I'll have mine paid off this fall after four years) and it sounds like 64Fl is too, but others have refinanced or are doing REPAYE in order to start building some wealth/savings while in big law.

[64Fl]

100% defer to Slyther on the COL differences. My time in DC is solely from visits and apartments.com shopping while I considered starting there, so my cost expectations are more theoretical. Slyther has actually rented in both markets. Even if you can only do $60k, you'll knock your debt out in 1.5ish years max if you're diligent.

[DankHill]

Thank you all for your help - I would be a little adrift without it. This will not be easy, and it's doubly difficult because the slow response times in this cycle (b/c crush of apps and COVID) have meant that I only have 2-3 weeks to make it.

[pancakes3]

UVa has a statistically significant, if marginal, benefit for placing into DC, but with a 190k salary and an aggressive debt-payment plan, the difference between paying down your debt in 2 years v. 1 year 6 months is also marginal.

I also think the margin isn't as narrow as 21/14%. Maybe that's what it was in the latest ABA reports, but historically, i think it's closer to 20/10.

With that being said, i don't think there's a wrong answer here. Just what you're personally comfortable with.

DC also has a high COL for sure, especially rent, but unlike NYC/SF, there are at least options to live in cheaper, crappier housing. Sure it's a bad look to be making 190k and living in a $1300/mo english basement with a roommate, or living out in Silver Spring, Fort Totten, but at least the option is there; you don't have to live in a $2k+ apt.

[Serett]

Consensus is Charlotte hours are lower than NYC. Keep in mind 1900-2000 is just a common threshold to be eligible for bonus at many NY firms, most work beyond it. It’s not like you can declare yourself done for the year and stop working when you hit 2000 in August.

is charlotte achievable from duke or uva without ties?

Off the top of my head, I know a pair of non-Carolinians who found (PI/gov't) work in the Research Triangle region and one who got Charlotte biglaw. Could be more I'm forgetting or unaware of, and no clue how many people might have had similar options but preferred going to another market. From my own experience, I'd say it's possible but not directly out of law school, and I personally got zero traction trying (not to imply I tried hard, just OCI and one non-OCI app, and my grades were middling). That said, I'd be pretty confident about my ability to lateral there now if I were so inclined, granted I'm in the right practice area for Charlotte (finance). I've only half-read this topic, but if you have a home market like California or something that you'd be fine going to, I wouldn't be worried about Duke placing there. My impression from my class is that people from there who wanted to return there found jobs there, both at firms and for government (public defender, district attorney's offices) work. I similarly got where I wanted to be in my Midwest home market. My normal advice with cost of attendance that similar and job prospects that similar between options would be to visit each school/area and consider where you'll be happier spending three years. That'll be more important, in general and maybe also to your performance in law school and thus prospects anyway, than trying to split hairs over 1-2 theoretical percentage chances of placing somewhere or what'll be two months' after-tax salary by the time you're a third year in biglaw (or Monopoly PAYE money in PI/gov't). Pandemic complicates visiting a bit, but I'd still say that should be the basis for the decision here if at all feasible.