duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
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pancakes3
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by pancakes3 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:41 am

UVa places significantly more grads at DC firms than Duke. But also, yeah, +20k is adding 20-25% to your debtload but if you're able get 190k+bonus at DC hours v NYC hours or 160k in Charlotte, imo it's worth it.

Plus I'll take Charlottesville over Durham all day. But I'm not really a city person.

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Nony
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Nony » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:37 am

$20k is obviously a lot of money, but it’s not that much relative to the debt if it’s going to get you measurably better outcomes. FWIW, I don’t think there’s some kind of abstract benefit to UVA over Duke for fedgov - there are people from all kinds of schools in (most parts of) fedgov and I think the emphasis is more on doing well where you are than going to a narrow range of schools. What I can’t comment on is what kind of pipeline either school has that might make one a better option than the other, but I don’t think that in a vacuum it will matter whether you go to Duke or UVA.

(I say “most parts” to allow for elevated things like, oh, the Solicitor General’s office, though even there I’m not sure there’s a significant difference between Duke and UVA.)

But fedgov is a really broad umbrella and so you will want to do quite a lot of research about agencies when looking at jobs. Even DOJ covers a huge range of options, and people tend to approach DOJ honors as if it will result in only one kind of job experience.

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:50 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:41 am
UVa places significantly more grads at DC firms than Duke. But also, yeah, +20k is adding 20-25% to your debtload but if you're able get 190k+bonus at DC hours v NYC hours or 160k in Charlotte, imo it's worth it.

Plus I'll take Charlottesville over Durham all day. But I'm not really a city person.
are dc or charlotte hours significantly different than NYC hours? this hasn't been my impression so far, but maybe i'm off base. my impression has been that 2000 billable is pretty standard across markets

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heythatslife
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by heythatslife » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:55 pm

Consensus is Charlotte hours are lower than NYC. Keep in mind 1900-2000 is just a common threshold to be eligible for bonus at many NY firms, most work beyond it. It’s not like you can declare yourself done for the year and stop working when you hit 2000 in August.

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:57 pm

heythatslife wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:55 pm
Consensus is Charlotte hours are lower than NYC. Keep in mind 1900-2000 is just a common threshold to be eligible for bonus at many NY firms, most work beyond it. It’s not like you can declare yourself done for the year and stop working when you hit 2000 in August.

is charlotte achievable from duke or uva without ties?

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Slytherpuff
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Slytherpuff » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:53 pm

DankHill wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:50 pm
pancakes3 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:41 am
UVa places significantly more grads at DC firms than Duke. But also, yeah, +20k is adding 20-25% to your debtload but if you're able get 190k+bonus at DC hours v NYC hours or 160k in Charlotte, imo it's worth it.

Plus I'll take Charlottesville over Durham all day. But I'm not really a city person.
are dc or charlotte hours significantly different than NYC hours? this hasn't been my impression so far, but maybe i'm off base. my impression has been that 2000 billable is pretty standard across markets
2000 is the standard target for most big law firms, but that means nothing when a firm is giving you more work than can fit into 2000 billable hours. There's a big variation between firms where you're closer to 2000 and firms where you're going to be passing 2400 (or even 2700) every year. DC big law is no cakewalk but you have a much better chance of staying closer to 2000 hours than you do in NYC.

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pancakes3
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by pancakes3 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:09 pm

Charlotte is tough to crack without ties, period, but you're in a better spot coming out of duke than uva.

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:01 am

the other thing that might change the calculation here is a permanent WFH/remote option. if law students are allowed to do remote learning indefinitely, that could presumably shave about 35-40K off of the COA, reducing the time that would need to be spent in a high-paying job like biglaw. has anyone done "zoom law school?" is it really as awful as it's made out to be? if 2L and 3L have remote options that could seriously reduce my total COA, would that be worth doing? (not seriously considering doing 1L remotely as 1L grades are very important and studying remotely might be seriously demoralizing/detrimental to my performance)

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Nony
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Nony » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:15 am

I’d be really surprised if schools continued to offer remote options any longer than required by the pandemic. For one thing, the ABA generally has residence requirements that I don’t think are compatible with remote learning, which is why there were so few online schools before the pandemic. I’m sure those rules have been suspended for the moment but I really doubt they’ll just be done away with. For another, lots of people among both students and faculty hate remote learning. This is just my gut reaction so I could absolutely be wrong, but it’s not something I would count on at this point.

I also think that if you don’t want biglaw and attending remotely is likely to be detrimental to your performance, doing 2L and 3L remotely is a bad idea because those grades still matter for a non-negligible percentage of jobs that aren’t biglaw (like fedgov).

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Stranger
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Stranger » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:14 pm

DankHill wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:01 am
the other thing that might change the calculation here is a permanent WFH/remote option. if law students are allowed to do remote learning indefinitely, that could presumably shave about 35-40K off of the COA, reducing the time that would need to be spent in a high-paying job like biglaw. has anyone done "zoom law school?" is it really as awful as it's made out to be? if 2L and 3L have remote options that could seriously reduce my total COA, would that be worth doing? (not seriously considering doing 1L remotely as 1L grades are very important and studying remotely might be seriously demoralizing/detrimental to my performance)
Remote learning works well for a handful of practicums and is terrible for almost everything else. I don't think anyone is eager to extend it beyond necessity. I'm currently a 3L, and really would not recommend remote learning.

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sev
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by sev » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:23 pm

DankHill wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:05 am
i don't know if 20K is small potatoes. maybe for some people it's insignificant, but not to me - the premise of the question is that the money *is* valuable, and i need to balance saving it over perhaps having a better shot at DC BL
Oh yeah, I wasn't saying it's small potatoes--I was just saying that if I was set on DC, UVA might be worth the extra $20k.
has anyone done "zoom law school?" is it really as awful as it's made out to be?
Yes. 0/10, no stars. I also agree that it probably won't be offered for much longer--the schools would be tacitly admitting they don't offer value over coursera.

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm

No way I believe that zoom law school is worse than the real thing.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Hey_Everybody » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:59 pm

BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm
No way I believe that zoom law school is worse than the real thing.
Yup, it's not that bad at all. Lectures can be kinda brutal/hard to pay attention to over zoom. But any kind of socratic class works just as well as in person imo. And it's pretty nice to be able to just roll out of bed and hop on zoom for early morning classes

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Stranger
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Stranger » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:25 pm

Hey_Everybody wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:59 pm
BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm
No way I believe that zoom law school is worse than the real thing.
Yup, it's not that bad at all. Lectures can be kinda brutal/hard to pay attention to over zoom. But any kind of socratic class works just as well as in person imo. And it's pretty nice to be able to just roll out of bed and hop on zoom for early morning classes
Are you doing pure Zoom or hybrid? Because my experience of classes with hybrid participation has been that the folks on Zoom basically get ignored until the prof decides to make a big deal of paying attention to them. And plenty don't really plan lessons in a way that accounts for the fact that some folks can't turn to discuss the issue with their neighbor. I'm not dead set against remote classes, particularly to get an adjunct who can't otherwise travel to teach. It's the hybrid classes, which is what they'd be if a school like Duke or UVA continued them post pandemic, that are awful.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Hey_Everybody » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:28 pm

Stranger wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:25 pm
Hey_Everybody wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:59 pm
BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm
No way I believe that zoom law school is worse than the real thing.
Yup, it's not that bad at all. Lectures can be kinda brutal/hard to pay attention to over zoom. But any kind of socratic class works just as well as in person imo. And it's pretty nice to be able to just roll out of bed and hop on zoom for early morning classes
Are you doing pure Zoom or hybrid? Because my experience of classes with hybrid participation has been that the folks on Zoom basically get ignored until the prof decides to make a big deal of paying attention to them. And plenty don't really plan lessons in a way that accounts for the fact that some folks can't turn to discuss the issue with their neighbor. I'm not dead set against remote classes, particularly to get an adjunct who can't otherwise travel to teach. It's the hybrid classes, which is what they'd be if a school like Duke or UVA continued them post pandemic, that are awful.
Mostly pure zoom. I have one hybrid this semester and had one last semester, but I mostly just go in person for the hybrid classes. Although when I've attended them over zoom I haven't had that problem. Probably because in the hybrid classes roughly 80% of the class is attending via zoom rather than in person

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:41 pm

clearly people have differing opinions on the remote learning issue. although i'd be surprised if it wasn't an option, given that dr. fauci has recently said that things won't be fully back to normal until 2022. then again, you all know law schools and their policies better than i do

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Nony
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Nony » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:00 pm

It's probably going to be an option this fall, which is when you've said you don't want to be remote. I'd be surprised if it continues in '22-'23 and '23-'24 though. For one thing, law schools can't just get rid of their expensive buildings filled with classrooms and won't want them to sit empty.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by Hey_Everybody » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:03 pm

Yup, my law school is already talking about being mostly in person in the fall. They're hedging a little on what exactly that means (and I don't really care because I'll be gone by then) but all indications are they're itching to go back to fully in person asap. Wouldn't bank on remote being an option for long

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64Fl
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by 64Fl » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:40 pm

I'm late to this thread, but UVA at $110k seems very defensible. $110k can also be knocked out very quickly in biglaw (2yrs, easily). I also think that you need to consider that say you think you could dedicate $70k of your first year salary towards loans. If that's the case, then if you sit out a year you better get a better scholarship opportunity in the tune of $70k. It's not quite apples to apples, obviously, but I don't think it's a terrible way to think about this. You also get a year of additional legal experience hopping straight in that can get you to whatever goal you have in the law a year quicker.

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:57 pm

64Fl wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:40 pm
I'm late to this thread, but UVA at $110k seems very defensible. $110k can also be knocked out very quickly in biglaw (2yrs, easily). I also think that you need to consider that say you think you could dedicate $70k of your first year salary towards loans. If that's the case, then if you sit out a year you better get a better scholarship opportunity in the tune of $70k. It's not quite apples to apples, obviously, but I don't think it's a terrible way to think about this. You also get a year of additional legal experience hopping straight in that can get you to whatever goal you have in the law a year quicker.
Duke recently came in with 50K/year. Total COA would be somewhere in the range of 75-90K, depending on what housing costs come out to. Is this the better choice? Do I stand the same chance of getting DC BL out of Duke (or a reasonably similar chance?)

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64Fl
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by 64Fl » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm

For me, I'd take $75-$90k at Duke over $110k at UVA. Duke and UVA have essentially identical employment numbers (both ~62% BL and ~14% FC). UVA places ~21% in DC and Duke places ~14%. Some of that is likely self-selection (if you wanted DC biglaw, perhaps you were more likely to choose UVA in the first place). It also looks like folks who want to practice internationally prefer the Duke brand (which would make sense), as Duke sends ~4% abroad every year and UVA sends 0%. I also wouldn't be surprised if more true southerners preferred Duke; Duke sends 5-6% to Florida every year and UVA sends 1%. Once you remove all of those reasons for self-selection, if UVA has an edge in real terms, it's probably 2-4%. It's not nothing, but it's probably also not worth $20-35k.

Considering there is such a decent chance at fed clerking at each school, that'd also give you a very real second bite at D.C.

I also think it's pretty hard to appreciate as a 0L how national/global a lot of firms are. I summered in NY at a V50 and my firm told me I could start in DC if I wanted. My current firm would probably let me move to DC tomorrow if I asked, despite being recruited for and working in the Chicago office.

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:15 pm

64Fl wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm
For me, I'd take $75-$90k at Duke over $110k at UVA. Duke and UVA have essentially identical employment numbers (both ~62% BL and ~14% FC). UVA places ~21% in DC and Duke places ~14%. Some of that is likely self-selection (if you wanted DC biglaw, perhaps you were more likely to choose UVA in the first place). It also looks like folks who want to practice internationally prefer the Duke brand (which would make sense), as Duke sends ~4% abroad every year and UVA sends 0%. I also wouldn't be surprised if more true southerners preferred Duke; Duke sends 5-6% to Florida every year and UVA sends 1%. Once you remove all of those reasons for self-selection, if UVA has an edge in real terms, it's probably 2-4%. It's not nothing, but it's probably also not worth $20-35k.

Considering there is such a decent chance at fed clerking at each school, that'd also give you a very real second bite at D.C.

I also think it's pretty hard to appreciate as a 0L how national/global a lot of firms are. I summered in NY at a V50 and my firm told me I could start in DC if I wanted. My current firm would probably let me move to DC tomorrow if I asked, despite being recruited for and working in the Chicago office.

Thank you for your input. It's not the location so much as the work. I'm very interested in federal regulatory work, so D.C. would be the natural place to do it.

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icechicken
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by icechicken » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:21 pm

64Fl wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm
true southerners [...] Florida
lol

otherwise great post

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DankHill
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by DankHill » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:23 pm

icechicken wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:21 pm
64Fl wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm
true southerners [...] Florida
lol

otherwise great post
These are the small distinctions that I'm going to have to get wise to if I end up attending either UVA or Duke.

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64Fl
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Re: duke, uva, cornell, or retake

Post by 64Fl » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:39 pm

icechicken wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:21 pm
64Fl wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:11 pm
true southerners [...] Florida
lol

otherwise great post
I didn't know any other way to describe people who'd prefer the FL market lol.

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