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Withdraw & Reapply?

General admissions strategy questions, what are my chances, discussion of specific application materials like financial aid and scholarships.
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Platopus
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Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Platopus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:14 pm

Already asked this in the Spivey thread, but I'm also interested in others opinions.

My numbers put me at/above median at every school in the country, and although I'm having an objectively good cycle, I can't help but shake the feeling that I might be able land more scholarship money next year, especially if I take the LSAT again and improve by even 1 point. I'm not gunning for HYS, just additional $$$ at CCNMVP. I'm not particularly debt averse, but I didn't land any full-rides to the T-10, so I'd still be paying a good chunk if I decide to attend this year.

Given the fact that I'm already having a good cycle and my numbers are strong, how would this look to schools if I reapply? My softs are average and unlikely to improve and I think I wrote a decent PS, so there isn't much room to really improve on the soft components of my application. Really, I'd be hedging my bets on a less competitive cycle next year and my ability to bump my score by just a point or two. Am I being a fool by looking the gift horse in the mouth?

edit: 2 years of full-time WE. Biglaw goals. Unlikely to receive any significant need-based aid at HYS.

Should also add: I’m asking this now, because if I reapply, I’ll need to get back on the LSAT wagon soon
Last edited by Platopus on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Finn
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Finn » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 pm

Is your $$$ situation post-scholly reconsiderations?

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Platopus
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Platopus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Finn wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 pm
Is your $$$ situation post-scholly reconsiderations?
No, but I doubt I'll be able to improve much. The $$$ I have received is pretty much the highest you can get without a full-ride. So yes, I'm being picky. But I doubt I'll be able to talk my way into a Levy/Darrow since you need to interview, and I've already received a Butler, so I won't be able to bump that to a Hammy. Haven't heard from Chicago on the $$ front, but I don't think it's going to be a Ruby. Impending WL at UVA and already WL at NU.

Legally Bland
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Legally Bland » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:38 pm

Are you borrowing money for law school? If so, then a Butler or a Chicago half-ride might already be a better choice than HYS.

if you apply next year, you'll be making multiple bets
1) next cycle will be less competitive
2) you will be able to improve on an LSAT that's already top 1%
3) you will get into UChi and CLS again
4) they'll up your scholarship offer, even after being turned down by you in the prior year

it seems like LSAT super-prepping is becoming increasingly common. When you combine that with the rise of the GRE, I really don't want to be involved in next cycle if I can help it :lol:

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Platopus
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Platopus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 pm

Legally Bland wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:38 pm
Are you borrowing money for law school? If so, then a Butler or a Chicago half-ride might already be a better choice than HYS.

if you apply next year, you'll be making multiple bets
1) next cycle will be less competitive
2) you will be able to improve on an LSAT that's already top 1%
3) you will get into UChi and CLS again
4) they'll up your scholarship offer, even after being turned down by you in the prior year
Yeah, everything will be loans and HYS at sticker aren't particularly appealing, given my goals. I'm really asking about my chances for points 3 & 4. I know it's a huge gamble, and I don't think I want to reapply, I just want to make sure I'm making the most informed decision.

Legally Bland
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Legally Bland » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:58 pm

Platopus wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 pm
Legally Bland wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:38 pm
Are you borrowing money for law school? If so, then a Butler or a Chicago half-ride might already be a better choice than HYS.

if you apply next year, you'll be making multiple bets
1) next cycle will be less competitive
2) you will be able to improve on an LSAT that's already top 1%
3) you will get into UChi and CLS again
4) they'll up your scholarship offer, even after being turned down by you in the prior year
Yeah, everything will be loans and HYS at sticker aren't particularly appealing, given my goals. I'm really asking about my chances for points 3 & 4. I know it's a huge gamble, and I don't think I want to reapply, I just want to make sure I'm making the most informed decision.
if I were you, I'd stick with cycle and negotiate as much as I can. A Butler is a pretty good starting point. MVP might go close to a full ride. uChi might match it. NYU might slightly exceed it. CLS itself might agree to raise their offer (although they probably won't give you a Hamilton) -- and you could take that and renegotiate with everyone else.

PanjandrumOfReason
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by PanjandrumOfReason » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:08 am

Given that you stated that you are not particularly debt averse and your goal is the high-salaried Biglaw, I think it is in your best interest to try to negotiate and take what you can get this cycle. (I do think you will get into UChi and CLS again next year, but I would also be worried your scholarship amount might actually go down, even with a higher LSAT score.)

NukinFutz
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by NukinFutz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:04 am

Do stir in a different view.... you may consider the forgone income you are passing up this year vs. that of starting law school next year. Assuming you get into the same schools with slightly more money (which sounds like in some situations, it is marginal) and you are still pursuing biglaw.... your first year you are going to make 130k to 180k (with additional yearly bonuses potentially at some firms). Each year - or every other year - your income increases if you are at standard biglaw with salary structured increases. When you extrapolate what you lose in one year over the term of your career vs. perhaps getting an extra 50k (for a random example) in a scholarship, you may come to feel that the benefit you thought you were gaining isn't all that great in comparison to the forgone opportunity cost of starting your career sooner. Just food for thought, but a consideration I had to make when I pondered a similar situation. Congrats on having to make a difficult, but ultimately a blessed decision. Those are the good kind of 'problems' to have.

2021Hopeful!
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by 2021Hopeful! » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:57 am

Just to play devil's advocate a little bit...

You could sign up for the June test to give yourself some certainty. Negotiate in the meantime, and submit a deposit to your best option. If you nail the test (175 or above), and the school you've committed to doesn't raise your $$$ despite your obvious incentive to reapply, then respectfully bail and reapply. If you don't nail it, then live with your already awesome options?

Schools won't love that you walked away, but if your score increases to the point that not reapplying would be financially irresponsible, can they really blame you?

Am I way off-base or is that reasonable?

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abujabal
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by abujabal » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:10 am

Platopus wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:14 pm
IDK man. There's always something better. I personally believe that I underperformed on my LSAT, and that with another month of directed study I could push 175+. But that's what I believe. I could very well have peaked. I could very well have gotten lucky, and my true average may be far lower than I thought. Who knows.

I think there's value in chasing gold (the Olympics are on, it's on the brain). Ambition is a necessary condition to success, in my opinion, and this is a post that says to me "hey, I'm ambitious, and I think I can do better".

That's a valuable feeling. But IDK that retaking is the best option. Yeah you can bank on the Trump Bump going away, and a reversion to previous cycles, or a different reader liking your essay more, or someone with your exact profile withdrawing from a named scholarship and it going to you. Or you can think about what having more tests available, and a politically active summer/fall might mean for test-takers. Or what the GRE's newfound acceptance might mean for who you're competing with.

The point is, in my opinion/read from the Admissions threads/TLS, you've got a damn good set of outcomes, especially for your goals. I'd say stick with it personally. In my calculus, the certainty of your current good outcomes outweighs the hypothetical of anything better.

But hey, who knows. Maybe you're next years first Hamilton recipient. Or you could get your awards revised down by 50%. World's weird

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heyduchess
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by heyduchess » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:56 am

I can't help but think about the people who sat out this year only to be smacked by the insanity that is this cycle. Are you doing something that will GREATLY improve your chances? Like a new job that puts you in the Highly Unique category? You already have kickass stats and I remember being impressed by your PS. I dunno. It's a massive gamble. It feels like your future success next cycle rides on the strength of the other applicants.

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HenryHankPalmer
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by HenryHankPalmer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm

I personally wouldn't do it. You have one of the better possible outcomes in the application process in hand already. The odds of the situation improving are marginal at best because, as crazy as this cycle was, the next one is shaping up to be a real donnybrook. Take your Butler and run.

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dm1683
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by dm1683 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm

What about in my case (sorry for scooping Plato, but we are # twins and another thread would be redundant). Same numbers (4.0/173) and same question (withdraw and reapply or no) but K-JD.

Accepted at Columbia w/ no $$ offer yet
Accepted at Penn, invited to apply for Dean's Scholarship
Accepted at Duke

WLed at Mich and UChi despite Why X's
No response from H/S but probably WL since I didn't get in in JS2 wave today
No response from NYU
Didn't apply to Y, UVA, Berk or Cornell

I suppose opinion will be more unified toward reapplying in my case but my parents are firmly against it and I don't really find the idea of working in a random job for a year solely to jump a hurdle in LS admissions particularly appealing.

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Walliums
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Walliums » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:33 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
What about in my case (sorry for scooping Plato, but we are # twins and another thread would be redundant). Same numbers (4.0/173) and same question (withdraw and reapply or no) but K-JD.

Accepted at Columbia w/ no $$ offer yet
Accepted at Penn, invited to apply for Dean's Scholarship
Accepted at Duke

WLed at Mich and UChi despite Why X's
No response from H/S but probably WL since I didn't get in in JS2 wave today
No response from NYU
Didn't apply to Y, UVA, Berk or Cornell

I suppose opinion will be more unified toward reapplying in my case but my parents are firmly against it and I don't really find the idea of working in a random job for a year solely to jump a hurdle in LS admissions particularly appealing.
Have you talked to Spivey yet?

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Finn
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Finn » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:37 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
but my parents are firmly against it
Maybe it's because you're K-JD (or because you really care about your folks' opinion), but why does this matter? Are they covering your COA?

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dm1683
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by dm1683 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:59 pm

Walliums wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:33 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
What about in my case (sorry for scooping Plato, but we are # twins and another thread would be redundant). Same numbers (4.0/173) and same question (withdraw and reapply or no) but K-JD.

Accepted at Columbia w/ no $$ offer yet
Accepted at Penn, invited to apply for Dean's Scholarship
Accepted at Duke

WLed at Mich and UChi despite Why X's
No response from H/S but probably WL since I didn't get in in JS2 wave today
No response from NYU
Didn't apply to Y, UVA, Berk or Cornell

I suppose opinion will be more unified toward reapplying in my case but my parents are firmly against it and I don't really find the idea of working in a random job for a year solely to jump a hurdle in LS admissions particularly appealing.
Have you talked to Spivey yet?
No, I don't have a lot of spare cash right now.
Finn wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:37 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
but my parents are firmly against it
Maybe it's because you're K-JD (or because you really care about your folks' opinion), but why does this matter? Are they covering your COA?
I suppose it really doesn't in the grand scheme of things, just another factor to consider. We are pretty close and their opinions do matter to me even though I know they really ought not to. And hell no, I'm probably getting max fin aid from H/S if I attend, we're middle class at best, probably lower middle.

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Walliums
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Walliums » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:28 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:59 pm
Walliums wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:33 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
What about in my case (sorry for scooping Plato, but we are # twins and another thread would be redundant). Same numbers (4.0/173) and same question (withdraw and reapply or no) but K-JD.

Accepted at Columbia w/ no $$ offer yet
Accepted at Penn, invited to apply for Dean's Scholarship
Accepted at Duke

WLed at Mich and UChi despite Why X's
No response from H/S but probably WL since I didn't get in in JS2 wave today
No response from NYU
Didn't apply to Y, UVA, Berk or Cornell

I suppose opinion will be more unified toward reapplying in my case but my parents are firmly against it and I don't really find the idea of working in a random job for a year solely to jump a hurdle in LS admissions particularly appealing.
Have you talked to Spivey yet?
No, I don't have a lot of spare cash right now.
It doesn't cost anything to ask them for a consultation.....

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MercW08
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by MercW08 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:08 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
my parents are firmly against it
My options when I decided to retake were far worse than yours so take this with a grain of salt, but I found myself in a similar situation with my mom. She was absolutely beside herself when I told her I was saying no to $$ from a TTT. She kept telling me how great of an offer it was and how great the school was, but of course she didn't really know what she was talking about. Her biggest concern was that taking a year off would "put me a year behind everyone else". Once I explained the situation in detail, and showed her some of the info I found about how much a few points on the LSAT could help with $$ she warmed to the idea. She still says I should have went away last year, but at least now she understands why I did what I did and is happy that its all worked out. For some, parents can be a hurdle to overcome when thinking about sitting out a year so I know the feeling. It may be slightly harder in your situation because that Penn offer is pretty damn tasty, but don't let your parents be the reason you go to school this fall, especially if deep down you really feel like you should sit out a year.

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rachelac
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by rachelac » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:59 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:59 pm
Finn wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:37 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
but my parents are firmly against it
Maybe it's because you're K-JD (or because you really care about your folks' opinion), but why does this matter? Are they covering your COA?
I suppose it really doesn't in the grand scheme of things, just another factor to consider. We are pretty close and their opinions do matter to me even though I know they really ought not to. And hell no, I'm probably getting max fin aid from H/S if I attend, we're middle class at best, probably lower middle.
I get this is circular advice, but I think taking time and working will help with your parents' attitude about their role in your law school decisions. My parents and I are VERY close, and had I applied straight out of undergrad I think they would've played a much larger role than they did once I had been working for 3 years and then applied. Once you're out of school and financially independent, the relationship changes even for those of us who are lucky enough to be close with their parents!

Legally Bland
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by Legally Bland » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:22 pm

My parents do have a say in where I go --- but they are paying tuition. They will wire me three years of sticker. I have to pay living expenses, either through schollies or my savings.

If they weren't paying, then I'd go wherever makes the most sense financially, in terms of debt load and future earnings prospects. Loans are not a joke -- 300K in student loans would be terrible if not a dentist or doctor.
Last edited by Legally Bland on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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RichardMilhousNixon
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Re: Withdraw & Reapply?

Post by RichardMilhousNixon » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:23 pm

rachelac wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:59 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:59 pm
Finn wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:37 pm
dm1683 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm
but my parents are firmly against it
Maybe it's because you're K-JD (or because you really care about your folks' opinion), but why does this matter? Are they covering your COA?
I suppose it really doesn't in the grand scheme of things, just another factor to consider. We are pretty close and their opinions do matter to me even though I know they really ought not to. And hell no, I'm probably getting max fin aid from H/S if I attend, we're middle class at best, probably lower middle.
I get this is circular advice, but I think taking time and working will help with your parents' attitude about their role in your law school decisions. My parents and I are VERY close, and had I applied straight out of undergrad I think they would've played a much larger role than they did once I had been working for 3 years and then applied. Once you're out of school and financially independent, the relationship changes even for those of us who are lucky enough to be close with their parents!
+1
Also, this may be something you've already done, but try showing them the data on the median age (I think it's 24 now for a lot of places, and older for some), percentage of incoming class that is KJD, the differential outcomes with just a year of WE, etc. I'm sure your parents want the best for you, and understanding the many / most applicants take time off and that this will be advantageous over the long run (outcomes, scholarships, etc) may help them understand your perspective.

That said, as said above, this should be completely your decision, not theirs. But not taking your parents' opinions into consideration is far easier said than done.

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