Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

General admissions strategy questions, what are my chances, discussion of specific application materials like financial aid and scholarships.
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navf60
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Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:24 am

I've made some posts on reddit before, but wanted to ask some other forums to get feedback as well.

I had a bit of a rough cycle. I applied across the entire T14 and a few T25, and was waitlisted pretty much everywhere aside from Berkeley. Berkeley offered me $75,000, but in the end I just couldn't pull the trigger on ~200k debt when I wasn't sure about a coast-to-coast move (COVID certainly didn't help this, wasn't able to visit any schools aside from a couple close to me). The only other offer I ended up getting is a full ride to WUSTL, which I ended up applying to super late after they sent me an invitation (February). I'm planning on remaining on a few waitlists through July. On the plus side, I'm thrilled to have the offer from WUSTL. I went to school at the University of Kansas, and love the Midwest. I could see myself being happy there if I don't get a biglaw job in NYC/CHI. However, I'm also aware from trawling the law school forums that I underperformed my stats quite a bit. I applied relatively late this year (Late Dec- Early Jan), so it's hard to get over the thought that I shot myself in the foot taking forever to finish apps. I was so singularly focused on the LSAT that I didn't have any of my other app materials ready to go. The whole process felt pretty rushed. I'm excited at the prospect of going to WUSTL this fall, but also have the nagging thought that I could polish my application, apply day 1, and have better offers next year. I would also apply to less schools, now that I've been through the decision process with Berkeley and know I don't want west coast.

However, I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile trade-off. I'm about to turn 25, and I'm excited to get started on my new career path. I don't know if any school is worth delaying my career an entire year. I'm not BigLaw or bust, either. But again, hard to think about potential options I may be leaving on the table.

Would love to hear any perspective/advice on my decision. It's obviously a late enough point in the cycle where I want to make a final decision and move forward with it.

Thanks and good luck to all for the rest of the cycle!

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Slytherpuff
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by Slytherpuff » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:37 pm

You way underperformed your stats and I would recommend reapplying at the beginning of the next application cycle. I'm also worried that there may have been something in your materials that was a red flag, since even in late December/early January you should have had far better outcomes than you did. Can you have someone look over your application materials - particularly your personal statement - to look out for typos/tone/something that would have made schools waitlist you instead of accept you?

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beep
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by beep » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:02 pm

Yea, I had similar/worse stats -- 17x low 3.6x low -- and had half scholarships to Chicago and Columbia. You can definitely do better than your last cycle.

What do you want to do with a law degree? Sounds like you are open to biglaw, but not set on it. If you are just sort of amorphously hoping for better career outcomes or interested in the law but don't know enough to have clear preferences, I think that is the situation where it makes the most sense to maximize your application outcomes; better schools with keep more doors open.

Also agree with slyther re: getting someone to look over your packet. This might be one of the rare situations where an admissions consultant makes some sense, if you can afford it.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:18 am

Slytherpuff wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:37 pm
You way underperformed your stats and I would recommend reapplying at the beginning of the next application cycle. I'm also worried that there may have been something in your materials that was a red flag, since even in late December/early January you should have had far better outcomes than you did. Can you have someone look over your application materials - particularly your personal statement - to look out for typos/tone/something that would have made schools waitlist you instead of accept you?
I think I'm set on applying day 1 next cycle. Like I said, my application felt rushed since I was clamoring to get them in as soon as I could. I'm definitely going to spend the rest of the summer tuning my application and reworking my PS, then pay for a consultant to look over materials. I think I may have went wrong in my PS approach. I went with the 7sage advice of writing a PS that shows you overcoming adversity and changing for the better. However, I feel my PS may have been too personal, and I could do better with a PS focused more on "Why Law?" But yeah, hard to go forward with a school that wasn't even on my initial application list when I could apply day 1 this cycle with a stronger application. I just hope deferrals don't screw me over for next cycle.

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ggocat
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by ggocat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:35 am

Yeah something went wrong. Agree with others that it shouldn't have been timing of the applications.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by pancakes3 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:13 am

+1 to this being a particularly notable underperformance. absolutely reapply but there's clearly something going on here. not even getting admission to the T25's with your stats is too much a coincidence to chalk up to bad luck or "late" in the cycle.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am

pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:13 am
+1 to this being a particularly notable underperformance. absolutely reapply but there's clearly something going on here. not even getting admission to the T25's with your stats is too much a coincidence to chalk up to bad luck or "late" in the cycle.
I know, people on the forums all seem to think there's something really wrong with my app. The only thing I can think of is my PS was way too personal and didn't make me look like a strong candidate. I know I had 2 fantastic LORs (really strong relationships with 2 professors I took multiple classes with), and I don't have any character or fitness issues/academic infractions. I would definitely go with a complete rewrite of my PS.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by pancakes3 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:56 am

navf60 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am
pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:13 am
+1 to this being a particularly notable underperformance. absolutely reapply but there's clearly something going on here. not even getting admission to the T25's with your stats is too much a coincidence to chalk up to bad luck or "late" in the cycle.
I know, people on the forums all seem to think there's something really wrong with my app. The only thing I can think of is my PS was way too personal and didn't make me look like a strong candidate. I know I had 2 fantastic LORs (really strong relationships with 2 professors I took multiple classes with), and I don't have any character or fitness issues/academic infractions. I would definitely go with a complete rewrite of my PS.
idk if a bad PS is able to tank your apps this hard, short of you sending a "Dear Berkeley" letter to all 25 schools - and even then...

but i'm not an adcomm, idk. you should reach out to Spivey. i don't think they post here any more but you can contact them directly.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:58 am

pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:56 am
navf60 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am
pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:13 am
+1 to this being a particularly notable underperformance. absolutely reapply but there's clearly something going on here. not even getting admission to the T25's with your stats is too much a coincidence to chalk up to bad luck or "late" in the cycle.
I know, people on the forums all seem to think there's something really wrong with my app. The only thing I can think of is my PS was way too personal and didn't make me look like a strong candidate. I know I had 2 fantastic LORs (really strong relationships with 2 professors I took multiple classes with), and I don't have any character or fitness issues/academic infractions. I would definitely go with a complete rewrite of my PS.
idk if a bad PS is able to tank your apps this hard, short of you sending a "Dear Berkeley" letter to all 25 schools - and even then...

but i'm not an adcomm, idk. you should reach out to Spivey. i don't think they post here any more but you can contact them directly.
I did have a consultation with Spivey. The guy I spoke to was awesome and thought the timing hurt me quite a bit. But I honestly don't know what would be so wrong with my app besides the PS. I promise I'm not some insane person with a secret criminal history lol. But pretty frustrating that I whiffed on almost every school. Hopefully next year applying day 1 will go a lot better for me.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by pancakes3 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am

navf60 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:58 am
pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:56 am
navf60 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am
pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:13 am
+1 to this being a particularly notable underperformance. absolutely reapply but there's clearly something going on here. not even getting admission to the T25's with your stats is too much a coincidence to chalk up to bad luck or "late" in the cycle.
I know, people on the forums all seem to think there's something really wrong with my app. The only thing I can think of is my PS was way too personal and didn't make me look like a strong candidate. I know I had 2 fantastic LORs (really strong relationships with 2 professors I took multiple classes with), and I don't have any character or fitness issues/academic infractions. I would definitely go with a complete rewrite of my PS.
idk if a bad PS is able to tank your apps this hard, short of you sending a "Dear Berkeley" letter to all 25 schools - and even then...

but i'm not an adcomm, idk. you should reach out to Spivey. i don't think they post here any more but you can contact them directly.
I did have a consultation with Spivey. The guy I spoke to was awesome and thought the timing hurt me quite a bit. But I honestly don't know what would be so wrong with my app besides the PS. I promise I'm not some insane person with a secret criminal history lol. But pretty frustrating that I whiffed on almost every school. Hopefully next year applying day 1 will go a lot better for me.
sorry to hear - i guess sometimes shit just happens. glad that you're not too discouraged and willing to give it a second go with a good attitude. wish you nothing but the best.

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Nony
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by Nony » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:27 am

I think a bad PS could do it, depending on what “overcoming adversity” means (not meaning any disrespect to you, OP, and not asking you to reveal any details). If adversity = overcoming cancer that’s pretty different from adversity = struggling with addiction or really serious mental illness or even serious PTSD (not saying that’s fair, just my impression of how it all works). Especially combined with applying later, the PS could have been a dealbreaker comparing you with similar applicants. If it were anything about your numbers I don’t think you’d have got into Berkeley.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:56 am

Nony wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:27 am
I think a bad PS could do it, depending on what “overcoming adversity” means (not meaning any disrespect to you, OP, and not asking you to reveal any details). If adversity = overcoming cancer that’s pretty different from adversity = struggling with addiction or really serious mental illness or even serious PTSD (not saying that’s fair, just my impression of how it all works). Especially combined with applying later, the PS could have been a dealbreaker comparing you with similar applicants. If it were anything about your numbers I don’t think you’d have got into Berkeley.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking only because I'm not sure what else would have done it. I'm a couple years out of college and don't have any impressive work experience, so that could be hurting me too. But I think you're right, I really worked hard on my PS and thought it was good, but the more I think about it the more I'm worried the PS read as vulnerability rather than perseverance. This cycle I think I want to discuss my interest in law and why I'm motivated to get a law degree. I overthought the PS to some degree, and was afraid to write something along the lines of "Why Law", but now feel like that would be a much better approach...

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Slytherpuff
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by Slytherpuff » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:19 am

Would you feel comfortable posting your PS in here so that people could look it over and give you some thoughts as to how it might have come off? (If not, no worries.)

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ggocat
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by ggocat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:34 am

With your numbers, you can afford to not "wow" them with a personal statement. So I think something more conventional -- something that won't make you stand out -- could be a good idea. I'm no admissions expert, but I consider the personal statement to be one of those soft factors that is more likely to get you crossed off the list rather than added to it. You know, it just needs to be "good enough," not riddled with typos, and not make you sound like a jerk/psycho/unstable.

Although the consensus is that you under-performed, I don't think you can bank on large scholarships from top schools given that the GPA appears to be lower than median at most of them. If $25k/year from Berkeley doesn't look enticing, are you really going to want to pay full sticker or even slightly reduced price at CCN? In the end, WUSTL with a full ride is a good option, and you might find it to be your best option even after another year of submissions.

ETA: lack of "impressive work experience" probably had no effect.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:01 pm

ggocat wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:34 am
With your numbers, you can afford to not "wow" them with a personal statement. So I think something more conventional -- something that won't make you stand out -- could be a good idea. I'm no admissions expert, but I consider the personal statement to be one of those soft factors that is more likely to get you crossed off the list rather than added to it. You know, it just needs to be "good enough," not riddled with typos, and not make you sound like a jerk/psycho/unstable.

Although the consensus is that you under-performed, I don't think you can bank on large scholarships from top schools given that the GPA appears to be lower than median at most of them. If $25k/year from Berkeley doesn't look enticing, are you really going to want to pay full sticker or even slightly reduced price at CCN? In the end, WUSTL with a full ride is a good option, and you might find it to be your best option even after another year of submissions.

ETA: lack of "impressive work experience" probably had no effect.
When I spoke to the Spivey admissions consultant, he gave me ranges of scholarships I could expect to get from each school if I get in. I'm not hoping for any full rides from T14 obviously, but 30k-40k a year from Michigan/NU/Cornell would be a great outcome for me. This probably sounds entitled, but Berkeley was the school I wanted to attend the least out of the T14, mostly because of how far I'd be from all my family. I'm not sure I'd pay close to sticker at CCN, but possibly. I realize Washington is a great option but it's also kind of hard to move forward having struck out on all my top choices, and knowing there's a good chance I could get some of those choices if I reapply.
Last edited by navf60 on Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

navf60
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by navf60 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:02 pm

Slytherpuff wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:19 am
Would you feel comfortable posting your PS in here so that people could look it over and give you some thoughts as to how it might have come off? (If not, no worries.)
I don't really want to post it here, but would be willing to PM it when I get home this afternoon if anyone is interested in reading/helping me out.

app
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Re: Is it worth it to reapply? 17high 3.6high

Post by app » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:26 pm

navf60 wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:24 am
I've made some posts on reddit before, but wanted to ask some other forums to get feedback as well.

I had a bit of a rough cycle. I applied across the entire T14 and a few T25, and was waitlisted pretty much everywhere aside from Berkeley. Berkeley offered me $75,000, but in the end I just couldn't pull the trigger on ~200k debt when I wasn't sure about a coast-to-coast move (COVID certainly didn't help this, wasn't able to visit any schools aside from a couple close to me). The only other offer I ended up getting is a full ride to WUSTL, which I ended up applying to super late after they sent me an invitation (February). I'm planning on remaining on a few waitlists through July. On the plus side, I'm thrilled to have the offer from WUSTL. I went to school at the University of Kansas, and love the Midwest. I could see myself being happy there if I don't get a biglaw job in NYC/CHI. However, I'm also aware from trawling the law school forums that I underperformed my stats quite a bit. I applied relatively late this year (Late Dec- Early Jan), so it's hard to get over the thought that I shot myself in the foot taking forever to finish apps. I was so singularly focused on the LSAT that I didn't have any of my other app materials ready to go. The whole process felt pretty rushed. I'm excited at the prospect of going to WUSTL this fall, but also have the nagging thought that I could polish my application, apply day 1, and have better offers next year. I would also apply to less schools, now that I've been through the decision process with Berkeley and know I don't want west coast.

However, I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile trade-off. I'm about to turn 25, and I'm excited to get started on my new career path. I don't know if any school is worth delaying my career an entire year. I'm not BigLaw or bust, either. But again, hard to think about potential options I may be leaving on the table.

Would love to hear any perspective/advice on my decision. It's obviously a late enough point in the cycle where I want to make a final decision and move forward with it.

Thanks and good luck to all for the rest of the cycle!
idk this seems like your apps underperformed. with these numbers you should get consideration easily from T6 and even possible admits at HCCN. anything you think might have made it so like C&F? something in the PS or resume?

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