Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

[SCGAnneD]

Spivey team - have you ever seen a successful tactic to negotiate off the WL or HOLD as offering to defer potential admission to the following year (instead of 2019, offer to defer potential admission to 2020)? Especially if deferring does not have a negative affect to you (the applicant) personally? What would schools think / consider?

Yes, absolutely! But there are a few things to consider from the school's side: 1) They need to be reasonably sure that you will matriculate the following year; 2)they need to be sure that your numbers will help or at least not hurt them for the following year; and 3) that you have a plan of what you might do for the intervening year.

[CelestialLaw07]

Spivey team - have you ever seen a successful tactic to negotiate off the WL or HOLD as offering to defer potential admission to the following year (instead of 2019, offer to defer potential admission to 2020)? Especially if deferring does not have a negative affect to you (the applicant) personally? What would schools think / consider?

Yes, absolutely! But there are a few things to consider from the school's side: 1) They need to be reasonably sure that you will matriculate the following year; 2)they need to be sure that your numbers will help or at least not hurt them for the following year; and 3) that you have a plan of what you might do for the intervening year.

Would you approach the school through an LOCI or directly (like phone call?)?

[DanielleEarly]

Spivey team - have you ever seen a successful tactic to negotiate off the WL or HOLD as offering to defer potential admission to the following year (instead of 2019, offer to defer potential admission to 2020)? Especially if deferring does not have a negative affect to you (the applicant) personally? What would schools think / consider?

Yes, absolutely! But there are a few things to consider from the school's side: 1) They need to be reasonably sure that you will matriculate the following year; 2)they need to be sure that your numbers will help or at least not hurt them for the following year; and 3) that you have a plan of what you might do for the intervening year.

Would you approach the school through an LOCI or directly (like phone call?)?

I would try to feel it out with a phone call first.

~Danielle

[CelestialLaw07]

Spivey team - have you ever seen a successful tactic to negotiate off the WL or HOLD as offering to defer potential admission to the following year (instead of 2019, offer to defer potential admission to 2020)? Especially if deferring does not have a negative affect to you (the applicant) personally? What would schools think / consider?

Yes, absolutely! But there are a few things to consider from the school's side: 1) They need to be reasonably sure that you will matriculate the following year; 2)they need to be sure that your numbers will help or at least not hurt them for the following year; and 3) that you have a plan of what you might do for the intervening year.

Would you approach the school through an LOCI or directly (like phone call?)?

I would try to feel it out with a phone call first.

~Danielle

Thanks!

[AnnaliseK]

Hi Spivey Team!

Thanks for all you do. I'm currently waitlisted at 6 schools (14-22). I'm really interested in some of the schools I've been waitlisted at, and I'm aware that it really comes down to expressing continued interest and waiting it out. I have a 154 and was wondering if it would be a crazy thought to try to take the June LSAT to try to get off some waitlists. Also, do you think retaking would have a detrimental effect on the schools I've been accepted to and those I'm still waiting to hear from. I'm not trying to wait another cycle, so reapplying isn't much of an option for me.

Thanks!

[SD_Spivey_Consulting]

Hi Spivey Team!

Thanks for all you do. I'm currently waitlisted at 6 schools (14-22). I'm really interested in some of the schools I've been waitlisted at, and I'm aware that it really comes down to expressing continued interest and waiting it out. I have a 154 and was wondering if it would be a crazy thought to try to take the June LSAT to try to get off some waitlists. Also, do you think retaking would have a detrimental effect on the schools I've been accepted to and those I'm still waiting to hear from. I'm not trying to wait another cycle, so reapplying isn't much of an option for me.

Thanks!

Hi AnnaliseK! It's not a crazy thought at all to retake the June LSAT to improve your chances of getting admitted. It won't be detrimental to any of your pending schools, although I would hope that by June you will have heard from them! The only real caution is that any school you applied to can see that you have a future LSAT registration. Schools where you have been accepted already may question why you're retaking it and will probably assume it's for one of three reasons: 1) you're trying to get off a WL somewhere else, 2) you want to reapply next cycle and aim for more selective schools, or 3) you are hoping to qualify for scholarship or obtain an increase in a current award. Any of these reasons is legitimate, and a school will not rescind an admissions offer from you simply for retaking the LSAT. However, be prepared to answer the question as to why you are retaking it should a school ask you.

Also, think about how much effort you can put into the June LSAT and whether you can greatly improve your score. If you can reach a school's median LSAT or above, that will put you in the best position to gain an offer should space be available. Think about how much you have to improve in order to do that with the schools you are aiming for. If you will only be able to get it up a couple of points (154 to 156) then those two points aren't likely to do anything to increase your odds at T14-22 schools, and if you're admitted it's going to be for reasons other than a little bump up in your score.

Hope this helps and good luck!
-- Shannon

[Nietzschean]

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[AnnaliseK]

Hi Spivey Team!

Thanks for all you do. I'm currently waitlisted at 6 schools (14-22). I'm really interested in some of the schools I've been waitlisted at, and I'm aware that it really comes down to expressing continued interest and waiting it out. I have a 154 and was wondering if it would be a crazy thought to try to take the June LSAT to try to get off some waitlists. Also, do you think retaking would have a detrimental effect on the schools I've been accepted to and those I'm still waiting to hear from. I'm not trying to wait another cycle, so reapplying isn't much of an option for me.

Thanks!

Hi AnnaliseK! It's not a crazy thought at all to retake the June LSAT to improve your chances of getting admitted. It won't be detrimental to any of your pending schools, although I would hope that by June you will have heard from them! The only real caution is that any school you applied to can see that you have a future LSAT registration. Schools where you have been accepted already may question why you're retaking it and will probably assume it's for one of three reasons: 1) you're trying to get off a WL somewhere else, 2) you want to reapply next cycle and aim for more selective schools, or 3) you are hoping to qualify for scholarship or obtain an increase in a current award. Any of these reasons is legitimate, and a school will not rescind an admissions offer from you simply for retaking the LSAT. However, be prepared to answer the question as to why you are retaking it should a school ask you.

Also, think about how much effort you can put into the June LSAT and whether you can greatly improve your score. If you can reach a school's median LSAT or above, that will put you in the best position to gain an offer should space be available. Think about how much you have to improve in order to do that with the schools you are aiming for. If you will only be able to get it up a couple of points (154 to 156) then those two points aren't likely to do anything to increase your odds at T14-22 schools, and if you're admitted it's going to be for reasons other than a little bump up in your score.

Hope this helps and good luck!
-- Shannon

Thanks!

[ThaBlackLord]

Hello team Spivey,

I was wondering how many years of full-time work experience post-graduation were enough to potentially offset a low GPA and/or low LSAT?

Cheers,

[NikkiLaubenstein]

Hello team Spivey,

I was wondering how many years of full-time work experience post-graduation were enough to potentially offset a low GPA and/or low LSAT?

Cheers,

I wouldn’t assess this in terms of number of years of work experience as much as the quality of your experience and how you are able to express to admissions committees what you will add to their class because of that experience (ex. leadership skills, networking, teamwork, and other real-world knowledge). How has your work experience prepared you for your law studies? If you have worked for a number of years, did you experience various positions at different workplaces, or promotions/increases in responsibility that you can talk about? If you worked for only a short time, did this experience help lead you towards law school or help you develop certain skills or perspectives you think will be valuable for that law school to know about? Also, this question cannot be answered universally for all law schools, as your credentials will make you more or less “on the bubble” at different schools and each will place their own weight on how much your work experience moves the needle for them in terms of outweighing a weakness in another area of your application. I hope this helps!

[ThaBlackLord]

Hello team Spivey,

I was wondering how many years of full-time work experience post-graduation were enough to potentially offset a low GPA and/or low LSAT?

Cheers,

I wouldn’t assess this in terms of number of years of work experience as much as the quality of your experience and how you are able to express to admissions committees what you will add to their class because of that experience (ex. leadership skills, networking, teamwork, and other real-world knowledge). How has your work experience prepared you for your law studies? If you have worked for a number of years, did you experience various positions at different workplaces, or promotions/increases in responsibility that you can talk about? If you worked for only a short time, did this experience help lead you towards law school or help you develop certain skills or perspectives you think will be valuable for that law school to know about? Also, this question cannot be answered universally for all law schools, as your credentials will make you more or less “on the bubble” at different schools and each will place their own weight on how much your work experience moves the needle for them in terms of outweighing a weakness in another area of your application. I hope this helps!

Thank you so much for your answer!!!

[ThaBlackLord]

Hey team Spivey,

If I take the LSAT this year but only plan to attend law school in 3 years, how would adcoms perceive my score?
I'm trying to get done with the LSAT as soon as possible but want to save money before law school.

Cheers,

[DanielleEarly]

Hey team Spivey,

If I take the LSAT this year but only plan to attend law school in 3 years, how would adcoms perceive my score?
I'm trying to get done with the LSAT as soon as possible but want to save money before law school.

Cheers,

The score will be useable for 5 years so it's fine if you want to take it now! There are many reasons why taking it earlier makes sense for a student - so dont worry that it will cause concern for admission - as long as it's within the 5 year period they will pay attention to the score - not the date!

~Danielle

[chasingcars123]

Hello Spivey,

Thanks for everything you do. I have a question about the use of law school consultants such as Spivey, 7sage, etc. I know some schools like YLS require that you disclose whether you received consulting services. I think this was discussed in one of YLS's blogs (https://law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admi ... -questions)

My question is does receiving consulting services hurt one's application to YLS, or other schools that require you to disclose you received consulting services? What's the general consensus of what adcomms at like say YLS think when they see you checked off the box that said you received consulting? How, if it at all, will it affect your application?

Thanks!

[NikkiLaubenstein]

Hello Spivey,

Thanks for everything you do. I have a question about the use of law school consultants such as Spivey, 7sage, etc. I know some schools like YLS require that you disclose whether you received consulting services. I think this was discussed in one of YLS's blogs (https://law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admi ... -questions)

My question is does receiving consulting services hurt one's application to YLS, or other schools that require you to disclose you received consulting services? What's the general consensus of what adcomms at like say YLS think when they see you checked off the box that said you received consulting? How, if it at all, will it affect your application?

Thanks!

While we cannot gauge exactly how each law school that asks this question uses the information, I would say that (even though it’s written by a former Yale dean of admissions) this YLS blog sums it up very nicely! Many students find benefits to using a professional consultant and some, as this blog article suggests, don’t have a need. While consultants certainly assist with essay topic brainstorming and overall review of materials, much of our time is often spent providing strategic advice, and helping clients navigate through a stressful and confusing process. Many appreciate our consulting for the peace of mind it provides as much as the professional insights! I would add that admissions consulting is becoming more commonly used by applicants and therefore, likely assessed similarly to how LSAT prep was considered by adcomms 11 yrs. ago when this blog was written. Additionally, many of our clients have been successful at schools where this question is asked. As with anything, the best way to know how a specific law school will treat a “yes” check mark in the box for consulting services, is to ask them directly. Best of luck!

[wingate2350]

Hello,

Would it be worth someone’s time to secure a high GRE score if he or she already took the LSAT - especially if he/she is able to score higher on the GRE? I noticed that Georgetown, for instance, reports both LSAT and GRE scores to the ABA; I was wondering then if a GRE score could bolster one’s application (especially if the LSAT was not as high). Is this correct?

[DanielleEarly]

Hello,

Would it be worth someone’s time to secure a high GRE score if he or she already took the LSAT - especially if he/she is able to score higher on the GRE? I noticed that Georgetown, for instance, reports both LSAT and GRE scores to the ABA; I was wondering then if a GRE score could bolster one’s application (especially if the LSAT was not as high). Is this correct?

Unfortunately, there really aren't enough people applying yet with just GREs or GRE/LSAT combos to be able to say definitively one way or the other. However, we did survey a bunch of schools last summer (https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/gre-v ... the-deans/) and I think a lot depends on the school. Some very straightforwardly said if you have an LSAT that is what they will focus on. While the ABA requires GREs and LSATs to be submitted and USNews will use it in rankings the number of people submitting them is still a very small number so the impact on rankings is minimal.

So for you I would say, if you know your standardized test score is a weakness for you and you feel you could do better if you retook, you should. But it does seem that for the majority of schools once you have taken the LSAT your GRE score will be less important.

[DarkPaladin1058]

Hello,

I am reapplying to law schools this upcoming cycle after applying in 2017-2018. I was previously accepted to my top choice but decided I was not ready to attend law school.

Is it bad form to use an updated version of my previous personal statement/essays for schools where I was previously accepted? I believe that these statements were a strong point of my previous application so I feel uneasy about replacing them.

Thanks!

[SD_Spivey_Consulting]

Hello,

I am reapplying to law schools this upcoming cycle after applying in 2017-2018. I was previously accepted to my top choice but decided I was not ready to attend law school.

Is it bad form to use an updated version of my previous personal statement/essays for schools where I was previously accepted? I believe that these statements were a strong point of my previous application so I feel uneasy about replacing them.

Thanks!

Hello,

When reapplying it is advised to look at what you could change about your application, as you cannot always assume if you're admitted in a prior year, you will be admitted again. It would be a good idea to ask the law school itself this question and see what they prefer. You may not need to write a new PS, but see if there is anything you can adjust here or there within it to give it a refresh. Maybe revisit it in a couple of months to see if you still feel it's as strong as you want it to be. Because you have the time and the opportunity to do so, look at where else you could update your app -- applying earlier, retaking the LSAT (advised if trying to get into schools you didn't get into before and you think you could increase the score), updating your resume, perhaps adding a more current LOR, etc. All of these things will show that you're looking seriously at your app and how you might make improvements. Whether you update your PS or other areas in your app, make sure to let your top choice school know why you chose not to attend so that they understand it is still your top choice. If you didn't write a statement about why you were interested in that school with your initial app, your next application would be a great time to do so. You could even consider applying early decision to drive that point home.

Hope this is helpful and good luck next cycle!

Shannon

[michaeleid811]

Hello Spivey!
I just received my LSAT score of 169, I don't have a cumulative GPA because I obtained my degree mostly through Clep and DSST exams, I had dropped out of high school when I was 16 to support myself and was a Truck Driver for awhile and did some other labor jobs until I found out about those exams and obtained my degree in a year. I am a Mexican American if that is relevant, should I just be targeting schools with LSAT medians around my score? Any chance schools will look at it positively that I figured out a way to obtain a degree and improve my situation? Any advice you have would be great!

[DarkPaladin1058]

Hello,

I am reapplying to law schools this upcoming cycle after applying in 2017-2018. I was previously accepted to my top choice but decided I was not ready to attend law school.

Is it bad form to use an updated version of my previous personal statement/essays for schools where I was previously accepted? I believe that these statements were a strong point of my previous application so I feel uneasy about replacing them.

Thanks!

Hello,

When reapplying it is advised to look at what you could change about your application, as you cannot always assume if you're admitted in a prior year, you will be admitted again. It would be a good idea to ask the law school itself this question and see what they prefer. You may not need to write a new PS, but see if there is anything you can adjust here or there within it to give it a refresh. Maybe revisit it in a couple of months to see if you still feel it's as strong as you want it to be. Because you have the time and the opportunity to do so, look at where else you could update your app -- applying earlier, retaking the LSAT (advised if trying to get into schools you didn't get into before and you think you could increase the score), updating your resume, perhaps adding a more current LOR, etc. All of these things will show that you're looking seriously at your app and how you might make improvements. Whether you update your PS or other areas in your app, make sure to let your top choice school know why you chose not to attend so that they understand it is still your top choice. If you didn't write a statement about why you were interested in that school with your initial app, your next application would be a great time to do so. You could even consider applying early decision to drive that point home.

Hope this is helpful and good luck next cycle!

Shannon

Does this same logic hold for HYS (which don't have early decision)?

[SD_Spivey_Consulting]

Hello,

I am reapplying to law schools this upcoming cycle after applying in 2017-2018. I was previously accepted to my top choice but decided I was not ready to attend law school.

Is it bad form to use an updated version of my previous personal statement/essays for schools where I was previously accepted? I believe that these statements were a strong point of my previous application so I feel uneasy about replacing them.

Thanks!

Hello,

When reapplying it is advised to look at what you could change about your application, as you cannot always assume if you're admitted in a prior year, you will be admitted again. It would be a good idea to ask the law school itself this question and see what they prefer. You may not need to write a new PS, but see if there is anything you can adjust here or there within it to give it a refresh. Maybe revisit it in a couple of months to see if you still feel it's as strong as you want it to be. Because you have the time and the opportunity to do so, look at where else you could update your app -- applying earlier, retaking the LSAT (advised if trying to get into schools you didn't get into before and you think you could increase the score), updating your resume, perhaps adding a more current LOR, etc. All of these things will show that you're looking seriously at your app and how you might make improvements. Whether you update your PS or other areas in your app, make sure to let your top choice school know why you chose not to attend so that they understand it is still your top choice. If you didn't write a statement about why you were interested in that school with your initial app, your next application would be a great time to do so. You could even consider applying early decision to drive that point home.

Hope this is helpful and good luck next cycle!

Shannon

Does this same logic hold for HYS (which don't have early decision)?

Yes, essentially, although HYS is a good example of why it's important to contact law schools to see what their own processes are. For example, Yale does not review prior applications and their decisions in one year are not influenced by a prior year. On the contrary, Harvard will look at your prior application along side your newer one, so they will be comparing materials. Stanford specifically requests an updated PS and resume with a reapplication. So, you can see the variations in just these three schools. Of course, most reapplicants to these schools have not already been admitted before, so the message is mainly for those who are still trying to get in. However, I would take my advice in terms of looking where you might make improvements, and refresh if not rewrite your PS, and again, make sure to let them know why you chose not to attend the prior year and that you are committed to attending this year if given the opportunity again.

I should have noted in the prior response that many schools will allow admitted students to defer for one year, meaning you can place a deposit at the school showing you're committed to attending that law school, but in the following year. Not all law schools will grant deferrals so you should check with the school where you were admitted (I believe HYS will each consider deferrals on a case-by-case basis).

[DarkPaladin1058]

Hello,

I am reapplying to law schools this upcoming cycle after applying in 2017-2018. I was previously accepted to my top choice but decided I was not ready to attend law school.

Is it bad form to use an updated version of my previous personal statement/essays for schools where I was previously accepted? I believe that these statements were a strong point of my previous application so I feel uneasy about replacing them.

Thanks!

Hello,

When reapplying it is advised to look at what you could change about your application, as you cannot always assume if you're admitted in a prior year, you will be admitted again. It would be a good idea to ask the law school itself this question and see what they prefer. You may not need to write a new PS, but see if there is anything you can adjust here or there within it to give it a refresh. Maybe revisit it in a couple of months to see if you still feel it's as strong as you want it to be. Because you have the time and the opportunity to do so, look at where else you could update your app -- applying earlier, retaking the LSAT (advised if trying to get into schools you didn't get into before and you think you could increase the score), updating your resume, perhaps adding a more current LOR, etc. All of these things will show that you're looking seriously at your app and how you might make improvements. Whether you update your PS or other areas in your app, make sure to let your top choice school know why you chose not to attend so that they understand it is still your top choice. If you didn't write a statement about why you were interested in that school with your initial app, your next application would be a great time to do so. You could even consider applying early decision to drive that point home.

Hope this is helpful and good luck next cycle!

Shannon

Does this same logic hold for HYS (which don't have early decision)?

Yes, essentially, although HYS is a good example of why it's important to contact law schools to see what their own processes are. For example, Yale does not review prior applications and their decisions in one year are not influenced by a prior year. On the contrary, Harvard will look at your prior application along side your newer one, so they will be comparing materials. Stanford specifically requests an updated PS and resume with a reapplication. So, you can see the variations in just these three schools. Of course, most reapplicants to these schools have not already been admitted before, so the message is mainly for those who are still trying to get in. However, I would take my advice in terms of looking where you might make improvements, and refresh if not rewrite your PS, and again, make sure to let them know why you chose not to attend the prior year and that you are committed to attending this year if given the opportunity again.

I should have noted in the prior response that many schools will allow admitted students to defer for one year, meaning you can place a deposit at the school showing you're committed to attending that law school, but in the following year. Not all law schools will grant deferrals so you should check with the school where you were admitted (I believe HYS will each consider deferrals on a case-by-case basis).

Thanks! Much appreciated.

[NikkiLaubenstein]

Passing along the most recent application and applicant volume data and analysis for anyone interested!
https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/end-o ... n-numbers/

Nikki

[gswarriors9434]

Dear Spivey,

Thanks for all the help you provide. I have a question about Early Decision and the October 28th LSAT.

So most Early Decision deadlines are November 15. And the latest LSAT score you can use for ED is the October 28 test. Now I think many ppl apply to ED because they’re slightly below both medians or some kind of splitter and want an extra boost. I don’t think the result release date for the October 28 LSAT has been made public, but assuming its about 3 weeks after the test date, we’d expect a release date of about November 18, which is after the ED deadline.

So what if someone applied ED by the November 15 deadline, and got their October LSAT score of a 175 back on November 18, and then realized that with that amazing score, there’s absolutely no need to ED anywhere, and that he should just instead apply broadly via regular decisions.

Is there a way to contact the school he originally ED’d to say I no longer want to ED there? Or to change that ED to a RD? Are there any ramifications of this?

Thank you.