3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

General admissions strategy questions, what are my chances, discussion of specific application materials like financial aid and scholarships.
apericolo
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3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by apericolo » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:20 pm

I am applying for IP law to the top 14 law schools for intellectual property. I am a double major in electrical and computer engineering and economics with an overall 3.99 GPA in a top 30 school. I took the GRE and got a 168 LSAT equivalent (162 Verbal, 164 Quant, which I think is the weakest part of my application overall).

Furthermore, I held an internship at the US Patent Office and completed summer research in engineering. I don't know if this matters, but I have been very extracurricularly involved in college. What are my chances of getting in the top 5 regular decision?

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heythatslife
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by heythatslife » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:46 pm

How is the "168 LSAT equivalent" derived? Are you converting your GRE percentile to LSAT percentile? In any case, even though some law schools have begun accepting GRE scores in lieu of an LSAT score, this does not mean you have an "LSAT equivalent" score that will be treated as though you scored an X percentile with the LSAT.

This whole GRE admissions thing is still in pilot phase for the most part and I don't think anyone really has enough data points to be able to provide accurate evaluation on a "chance me" thread. That said, my understanding is that it was designed for schools to be able to cherrypick otherwise outstanding candidates who don't have an LSAT. Sorry to break it to you but while your GPA is great, I don't think anything really stands out from your profile as you've described it. Some examples of the sort of thing that might make a compelling IP-focused resumé might be academic publications or patents.

If you're serious about law school, have you considered taking the LSAT? With yout GPA, t6 is in play with a score in the high 160s.

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UVA2B
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by UVA2B » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:50 pm

Further to heythatslife's points, have you formulated an application strategy? You have an awesome GPA, so you're theoretically in play across the board if you apply smartly and write your third dimension application stuff well. Your GPA in your academic discipline will open not insignificant doors in the law.

Realistically, you're in a great place for patent law before you ever enter law school. The supply of patent-eligible law students still outpaces demand (if we assume most firms want associates who can practice before the USPTO). We can't accurately project how the GRE v. LSAT focus will go, and considering you get one shot at this, I wouldn't put too much weight in how a GRE score will be perceived.

apericolo
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by apericolo » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks for the replies!

Regarding the GRE-to-LSAT conversion, I used the ETS tool.

I have not taken the LSAT. I did practice tests for them, and I was getting somewhere in the low 160s. I thought it would be easier to take the GRE, given that many of the law schools to which I am applying are accepting it now.

I am making my personal statement funny and correlated to the internships I have held. I am also first-generation, but I am not an underrepresented minority. I am writing about being first generation in my law school diversity statement. As for an admissions strategy, I am thinking of applying ED to Chicago.

Regarding publications, the lab I am in have drafts that are written (2 of which have my name upon them). They have not yet been filed for publication yet. As far as where that comes into play in my application, I just listed under my research that my lab has two publications that are pending.

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heythatslife
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by heythatslife » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:43 pm

Well I just want to re-emphasize that your GRE score is not an "LSAT equivalent" and the ETS conversion is kind of meaningless as what ETS says holds no water when it comes to law school admissions.

As I said, there's not enough data to predict the outcome of a GRE-only application and if you're going to ED Chicago, nobody is going to stop you but to be brutally honest I don't think your chances are that great with your resume. At the T6 level, you're going to be up against pretty tough competition for the limited number of GRE applicant spots that schools are allowed to give out. I had classmates in law school who already had PhDs in another field, won nationally recognized awards, etc., and this was back when everyone had to provide an LSAT score. I'm conjecturing here but it's not hard to see that these are the kind of applicants that schools are trying to attract with the GRE application program and that would be your competition.

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Jubo
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by Jubo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm

Since this point hasn't been addressed, if by "top 14 law schools for intellectual property" you mean:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings

Those rankings are meaningless. The only ranking that matters--unfortunately--is the standard one here:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings

No hiring partner/associate/HR will take any other ranking seriously, for better or worse.

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by pancakes3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:10 pm

A 164 quant is in the 87th percentile of test-takers. A 162 verbal is in the 91st percentile. The respective LSAT scores at those percentiles are a 162 and 164 respectively - those would be the measures I'd look at for an estimate of how equivalent scores are calculated.

You've got the quant skills to get a 170 GRE, so you're leaving points on the table, even as far as GRE scores go. Having never studied for the LSATs, you're leaving even more points on the table there.

Point is, you need to study harder for these entrance exams so as to maximize your opportunities. Even if you are able to gain entrance, student loans are no joke. In fact, they're the opposite of a joke. It's a crippling amount of debt. Wasting a 3.99 GPA with suboptimal scores for the chance of racking up 300k in debt is not a good idea.

You've got great credentials. Find employment for a year and study for the LSAT/GREs. Law school isn't going anywhere. If anything, the extra year will help you out long run - pads out your resume, gives you work experience, etc.

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Desert Fox
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by Desert Fox » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:32 pm

I make 400k/yr as an IP lawyer and I'd trade places with you just to not go to law school. Don't do it man.

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 pm

^ which school did you go to? how much preftige factor in career say hys vs ccn?

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:56 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:10 pm
A 164 quant is in the 87th percentile of test-takers. A 162 verbal is in the 91st percentile. The respective LSAT scores at those percentiles are a 162 and 164 respectively - those would be the measures I'd look at for an estimate of how equivalent scores are calculated.

You've got the quant skills to get a 170 GRE, so you're leaving points on the table, even as far as GRE scores go. Having never studied for the LSATs, you're leaving even more points on the table there.

Point is, you need to study harder for these entrance exams so as to maximize your opportunities. Even if you are able to gain entrance, student loans are no joke. In fact, they're the opposite of a joke. It's a crippling amount of debt. Wasting a 3.99 GPA with suboptimal scores for the chance of racking up 300k in debt is not a good idea.

You've got great credentials. Find employment for a year and study for the LSAT/GREs. Law school isn't going anywhere. If anything, the extra year will help you out long run - pads out your resume, gives you work experience, etc.
the combo of those v/q percentiles may be much higher than each individual percentile in GRE. that's how i think he arrived at 168.

i think gre is such a poor substitute for lsat. it seems it's such a disconnect about this within admissions as most admissions officers have not taken lsat ever even at hys, which a lot of applicants or students at these schools don't know nor care.

i barely studied for it gre and did well. lsat destroyed me, was exponentially harder. it took a lot of perseverance for me to do well on over a long period.

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by pancakes3 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:09 am

GRE equivalency is really a question for Spivey. we're all just speculating.

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm

i saw one score convertor once that could give you equivalent lsat from gre v/q scores. but i think such conversion doesnt really make sense.

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Jubo
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by Jubo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:19 am

app wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 pm
^ which school did you go to? how much preftige factor in career say hys vs ccn?
This will blow 0L's minds but even non-T14 grads (not that DF is a non-T14 grads) make 400k/year once they reach the same level of seniority. Harvard senior associates don't get paid more than Vanderbilt senior associates.

Also, at most biglaw firms, advancement is merit/review based so being a Harvard grad won't immunize you from being pushed out.

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Desert Fox
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by Desert Fox » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 pm

app wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 pm
^ which school did you go to? how much preftige factor in career say hys vs ccn?
DPNCB. CCN don't add any real value compared to the rest of the t14. I'd take a full ride at a t14 over HYS. The slightly more risky OCI process at t14 v. HYS is way outweighed by the risk you fucking hate being a lawyer and would rather do something else. In which case you'll be glad you don't have 300k in debt from HYS. But make that choice when you get all the financial aid offers.

You should get big law patent lit from T14 unless your grades are total garbage. You are very likely to get it from any T50 (but your options will be more regionally limited). And you could get an patent prosecution job even from a TTT law school assuming you went to a respectable engineering college.

Seriously though, why aren't you in SV starting your own business.

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Desert Fox
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by Desert Fox » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:54 pm

just realized app isnt the op

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by pancakes3 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:58 pm

i can think of no worse outcome for a 3.99 EE/CE from a public ivy to end up 300k in debt, doing patent pros.

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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by -__________________- » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:04 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:58 pm
i can think of no worse outcome for a 3.99 EE/CE from a public ivy to end up 300k in debt, doing patent pros.
400k in debt doing patent lit?

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by pancakes3 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:19 pm

-__________________- wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:04 pm
pancakes3 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:58 pm
i can think of no worse outcome for a 3.99 EE/CE from a public ivy to end up 300k in debt, doing patent pros.
400k in debt doing patent lit?
at least you got to live it up $100k more during law school and anything over 250k is funny money anyway so who cares.

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 pm
app wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 pm
^ which school did you go to? how much preftige factor in career say hys vs ccn?
DPNCB. CCN don't add any real value compared to the rest of the t14. I'd take a full ride at a t14 over HYS. The slightly more risky OCI process at t14 v. HYS is way outweighed by the risk you fucking hate being a lawyer and would rather do something else. In which case you'll be glad you don't have 300k in debt from HYS. But make that choice when you get all the financial aid offers.

You should get big law patent lit from T14 unless your grades are total garbage. You are very likely to get it from any T50 (but your options will be more regionally limited). And you could get an patent prosecution job even from a TTT law school assuming you went to a respectable engineering college.

Seriously though, why aren't you in SV starting your own business.
i think for engineers the $300k in debt is only part of the equation as opportunity cost can be > 1mil. SV tech is booming. but may be not everyone is interested in business or tech work. for them law career can make sense, no?

also, do engineers do generally not as well as other majors in law school? i've heard LS grades can be very unpredictable particularly for tech majors.

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:36 pm

is there any preftige or difficulty difference between doing patent prosec vs patent lit?

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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by -__________________- » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:02 pm

There is no prestige or difficulty in either

app
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by app » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:26 am

400k should get enough prestige in real world, no?

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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by -__________________- » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:10 am

only prestige I have is with the California franchise tax board

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by pancakes3 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:10 am

lit is more preftigious than pros

lolwat
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Re: 3.99 Engineering GPA, but 168 GRE to LSAT conversion--Chance Me

Post by lolwat » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:14 am

I think litigation is generally seen as more prestigious than prosecution, unless you're a patent troll, then you're a pos either way. i've never seen an individual get any sort of award or news ever for patent prosecution (i've seen firms, i guess, based on # of patents gotten), but plenty of news out there about big patent cases and Apple v. Samsung and all that.

I think as far as chances and school choices and stuff go Desert Fox is right. 3.99 GPA with high 160s or low 170s LSAT (with some studying) should be in play for pretty much anywhere (except maybe HYS with high 160s only), and it probably means significant $$$ from a number of T14s, which the OP should then take and focus on getting into patent law with no law school debt. I think there's still a lot of demand for patent lawyers and especially ones that will assumedly be taking the patent bar; it speaks volumes that there's an entire patent law interview program and OP should have no problem getting a good patent job from any T14 or even lower.

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