CLS vs GULC

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
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NeverEverGiveUp
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CLS vs GULC

Post by NeverEverGiveUp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:10 am

GT Repayment: $170,000 to $180,000
Is CLS worth $100,000 more?
Last edited by NeverEverGiveUp on Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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Sinoper
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by Sinoper » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:20 am

Why are these the two options? You have to have more on the table than the Columbia at sticker (?) and GULC at a decent discount. I'm not a fan of this amount of debt for either of these schools. What's your GPA/LSAT?

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am

I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.

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icechicken
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by icechicken » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:11 am

NeverEverGiveUp wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:10 am
How much more is CLS worth?
The EV of both might be negative if you're paying >$200k and have romanticized "international law" goals. As Sinoper and Hello point out, you need to be way more specific about your circumstances to get useful advice.

NeverEverGiveUp
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by NeverEverGiveUp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:19 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am
I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.
Sorry I edited my more detailed post before you replied.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:47 pm

NeverEverGiveUp wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:19 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am
I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.
Sorry I edited my more detailed post before you replied.
That doesn't change my response. You should avoid large debt loads, and unicorn outcomes are hard to get from any school, even top ones. You should be willing to take on the debt you're looking at for the likelihood of getting a job you hadn't planned on and be comfortable with that outcome.

Feel free to provide more detail if you want a more sophisticated analysis.

NeverEverGiveUp
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by NeverEverGiveUp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:56 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:47 pm
NeverEverGiveUp wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:19 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am
I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.
Sorry I edited my more detailed post before you replied.
That doesn't change my response. You should avoid large debt loads, and unicorn outcomes are hard to get from any school, even top ones. You should be willing to take on the debt you're looking at for the likelihood of getting a job you hadn't planned on and be comfortable with that outcome.

Feel free to provide more detail if you want a more sophisticated analysis.
+

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 pm

Thanks. No, Columbia is not worth $280,000. That's a massive debt load. $180k will be uncomfortable to pay off as it is, even with biglaw salary. $280k will be extremely uncomfortable and extremely detrimental to your credit and your ability to live your life.

You allude to an "unusual background," whatever that means, and indicate certain schools wouldn't take you. If anything in your background would impact your ability to get admitted to the bar, you should definitely minimize debt in case you go through this process and are told at the end you can't be a lawyer.

You mention clerking and teaching. Becoming a law professor is arguably the most unicorn of all unicorn positions to seek after law school. You're unlikely to get it, even from CLS, and that debt is not worth the off chance you might achieve that outcome.

Not sure how you'll work for fed govt without US citizenship but maybe you have a plan for that?

If GULC is your cheapest option, then sure, do it, although I'm queasy about that price. Don't do Columbia though.

NeverEverGiveUp
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Re: CLS vs GULC

Post by NeverEverGiveUp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:13 pm

Thanks for the input! No issues working here. I will likely be at a law firm as I am interested in international trade law and transactional work. I should not have mentioned clerking. I assumed at some point people take their knowledge to a place where they can teach others even when they are still working in business.
On LSN it looks like most CLS students get scholarships ranging from $60,000 to $90,000 and $100,000 at max. Are these folks ultimately not going to CLS? It seemed to be the typical discount short of getting a butler or Hamilton.

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icechicken
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Re: CLS vs GULC

Post by icechicken » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:28 pm

NeverEverGiveUp wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:13 pm
On LSN it looks like most CLS students get scholarships ranging from $60,000 to $90,000 and $100,000 at max. Are these folks ultimately not going to CLS? It seemed to be the typical discount short of getting a butler or Hamilton.
A large chunk of the people at T6 schools have wealthy parents who are willing and able to put them through law school, or at least help them out with rent money or an interest-free loan. Another chunk intend to roll all their debt into an LRAP and live like a monk for 10 years. Still more are making a bad life choice. If you're paying over a quarter-million for law school, and you're not in one of the first two groups, you're in the third.

NeverEverGiveUp
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Re: CLS vs GULC

Post by NeverEverGiveUp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:00 pm

"A large chunk of the people at T6 schools have wealthy parents who are willing and able to put them through law school, or at least help them out with rent money or an interest-free loan" Why did not I think of this? :)
The debt is real!
I tried to use a calculator I found on TLS and on a 5 year plan, assuming big law salary, I will have to pay $5760/month for CLS and $3518 for GULC (although GULC may have some additional hidden costs because their COA is not as detailed as CLS's).
That is after well over 6 figures discount from GULC. This is crazy! You don't see how crazy until you run the numbers. Assuming a salary of $190,000 and a take home of perhaps $130,000, you are living on $60,000 for five years (which is ok, I have lived on less, paying down debts) but that is assuming you can last 5 years at the high paying job.

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cavalier1138
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Re: CLS vs GULC

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:24 am

NeverEverGiveUp wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:13 pm
No issues working here.
That's not what was suggested. The suggestion was that if you have a background that was "unusual" enough to prevent you from getting admitted to schools you were otherwise qualified for, C&F for the bar may be an issue.

But if you keep being overly vague, it's really difficult for people to give you anything other than overly vague advice. Columbia definitely isn't worth the extra money, but you shouldn't be stuck deciding between Columbia at sticker and Georgetown at a significant discount. It's also a little weird that your other posts in the forum seem to indicate that you're not listening to everyone (including yourself) when they explain how much of a financial burden sticker debt is.

gregoriomartinon
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by gregoriomartinon » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:38 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am
I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.
Apologies for necroing this thread, but is international commercial arbitration really that unicorn? I'm median at YHSCCN with language abilities, and was planning on sort of pitching myself as a commercial litigation person generally with a particular interest in commercial arbitration. But is int. arb. just super hard to get?

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: CLS vs GULC for international law

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:51 pm

gregoriomartinon wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:38 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:59 am
I don't think your question makes sense. International law isn't a single coherent practice area such that you could compare outcomes in the way you propose.

Are you looking to do international commercial arbitration? Cross border transactional or corporate work? International human rights work, such as the ICC or one of the UN tribunals?

Regardless, these practices are generally all unicorn outcomes IMHO, so you're unlikely to achieve them and should have backup ideas in mind. Anecdotally, the one person I know who came close went to Columbia and then biglaw.
Apologies for necroing this thread, but is international commercial arbitration really that unicorn? I'm median at YHSCCN with language abilities, and was planning on sort of pitching myself as a commercial litigation person generally with a particular interest in commercial arbitration. But is int. arb. just super hard to get?
No international firm work (either in arbitration, cross border litigation, deal work generally, or CIFIUS/Sanctions/Export Control) isn't all that unusual but generally isn't what people are talking about when they say international law, especially because the international components generally suck in all those contexts (except the trade stuff).

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