Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.

Emory's Woodruff or T6?

T14 (MVPDN) $$
13
59%
T6 (CCN) $
8
36%
Emory $$$$
1
5%
 
Total votes: 22

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:32 pm

HELP! I applied to Emory solely for the Woodruff, and have recently been told I'm a finalist (headed to ATL to compete). I clearly don't have it in the bag quite yet, but I was told that it is somewhat of an exploding offer. You find out a few days later and then have to withdraw from other schools if you accept.

I have also been fortunate enough to break into the T6 with acceptances at UChi, Columbia and NYU, plus a slew of other T14's. I will almost definitely not know about financial aid from most of these schools before I would have to decide about the Woodruff. I am assuming small scholarships at lower T14's and even less from CCN,

Does anyone have any information at all about the scholarship? How much more is a T6 worth than a full ride at Emory? What about a T14? Any insight into job prospects of these fellows? Literally any advice, insight, or even telling me what you would do in my situation helps!

For this it would be easiest to assume general desirable goals, primarily centered around PI/GOV (clerkships, bigfed, impact lit) but also curious if the calculus changes with biglaw!

Also, my target markets are DC, California (from here, plenty of ties), and NYC-- in that order

User avatar
Hey_Everybody
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Hey_Everybody » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:14 pm

If your numbers are good enough to be in at CCN I would expect more than small scholarships in the lower T14. I got an over half tuition scholarship at my mid T14 and didn't get into any of CCN.

User avatar
icechicken
Lost in the sauce
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:14 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by icechicken » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:18 pm

negusdahabesha wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:32 pm
For this it would be easiest to assume general desirable goals, primarily centered around PI/GOV (clerkships, bigfed, impact lit) but also curious if the calculus changes with biglaw!

Also, my target markets are DC, California (from here, plenty of ties), and NYC-- in that order
You've got to do better than that. Lots of fulfilling PI careers are perfectly attainable from Emory (although getting to a market not in GA or a neighboring state will be tough), whereas certain specific outcomes (impact lit jumps off the page) are highly unlikely from Emory and only "attainable" even at CCN. You can't make an informed decision until you get a firmer grip on what your dream job is on the one hand and what fail-case fallback outcomes you'd be okay with on the other hand.

Agree with the above poster that your best bet is probably going to be the cheapest T14 offer you can find, in any case.

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:44 pm

icechicken wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:18 pm
negusdahabesha wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:32 pm
For this it would be easiest to assume general desirable goals, primarily centered around PI/GOV (clerkships, bigfed, impact lit) but also curious if the calculus changes with biglaw!

Also, my target markets are DC, California (from here, plenty of ties), and NYC-- in that order
You've got to do better than that. Lots of fulfilling PI careers are perfectly attainable from Emory (although getting to a market not in GA or a neighboring state will be tough), whereas certain specific outcomes (impact lit jumps off the page) are highly unlikely from Emory and only "attainable" even at CCN. You can't make an informed decision until you get a firmer grip on what your dream job is on the one hand and what fail-case fallback outcomes you'd be okay with on the other hand.

Agree with the above poster that your best bet is probably going to be the cheapest T14 offer you can find, in any case.
Thank you for your input. I want to clerk at the federal level, then I want to work for either my state AG (CA) the DOJ or a well known impact lit org (NAACP, ACLU, etc). I understand that my goals are lofty, but that's why they're goals. I would be reasonably content with ending up doing direct client services at a PD office, but I would definitely want that office to be located back here on the west coast. Not sure if that changes anything, but I was purposefully vague because I have little information on Emory's strengths and weaknesses.

User avatar
UVA2B
Moderator
Posts: 3139
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by UVA2B » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm

It's not that your goals are lofty, but you're focusing in a way that suggests you want to backdoor prestige-whoring, because prestigious clerking, impact lit, and possibly settling for biglaw screams you aren't focused on what you actually want to do with your law degree beyond being impressive to a subset of people.

Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).

User avatar
Toni
Posts: 516
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Toni » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:37 pm

Accepting an Emory full-ride is obviously a no-brainer. Should the full-ride falls through ― accept the best T13 deal offered that guides you to your target markets ― it’s good that you’re amenable to DC/NYC (not everyone is). As far as how much more a T13 is worth obviously depends on numerous variables (especially COL). Also. keep in mind that ATL does not pay NYC/DC market.

User avatar
quiver
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:58 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by quiver » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:58 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm
It's not that your goals are lofty, but you're focusing in a way that suggests you want to backdoor prestige-whoring, because prestigious clerking, impact lit, and possibly settling for biglaw screams you aren't focused on what you actually want to do with your law degree beyond being impressive to a subset of people.

Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).
100% agree with this.

User avatar
Stranger
Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Stranger » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Would you be happy landing at the Georgia AG office or the SPLC (or a similar, regional organization in the Southeast)? If so, take the Woodruff.

What I'm seeing at W&L is that folks who want to go home and work for their local PD office, even in California or Colorado, have a reasonably good shot at doing so. Aiming for something more prestigious out west from a Southern school below the t19, though, would be foolish. My biggest knock on Emory is the price (as compared to W&L, Alabama, UGA, Wake, etc.), and a Woodruff negates that.

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:58 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm
It's not that your goals are lofty, but you're focusing in a way that suggests you want to backdoor prestige-whoring, because prestigious clerking, impact lit, and possibly settling for biglaw screams you aren't focused on what you actually want to do with your law degree beyond being impressive to a subset of people.

Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).
If I may push back here, I actually couldn't agree less. My background is in direct client services. It is because of this background that I have seen what I believe to be the fullest extent that working in a PD/DA office can have on a community. My goal in attending law school is to maximize my potential impact. Like many people, I have no experience with many areas of the law. It is through law school that I hope to learn about things like impact litigation, and where that line of work fits into my overall goals (primarily focused on minority communities). My interest in clerking stems from the very few lawyer mentors I have strongly recommending that it is something I pursue, given that they argue it teaches new lawyers how to actually be lawyers better than law school itself. I don't expect all, or even any, of these outcomes to be available to me at any of my choices, but I want to at least try. I have literally no interest in corporate work. The only way I would consider it is if my debt required me to. That wouldn't be the case at Emory, but it might at Columbia (tbd).

In terms of Emory, my main concern would be geographic flexibility and the "rolling the dice" aspect. I have no issue with working in Atlanta for some time. In fact, I would consider the other poster's hypo of ending up at the SPLC to be a rather ideal outcome. But I wouldn't be as happy being a PD in Atlanta, in comparison with CA. My family and my partner are here on the west coast, and it is where I ultimately want to be.

I appreciate all your help. I've read many of your posts and learned a whole lot, especially from our direct interactions. Hopefully now you have a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

User avatar
Tsuga
Posts: 735
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Tsuga » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:02 pm

I think if you're absolutely 100% dedicated to PI, you should look at which T6 has the best LRAP program. The best debt is no debt, yes, but the difference in outcomes between T6 vs. Emory is large enough IMO that T6 on LRAP beats Emory for free (or COL?).

See here for LRAP/IBR/PSLF info: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=256

User avatar
icechicken
Lost in the sauce
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:14 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by icechicken » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:13 pm

negusdahabesha wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:44 pm
Thank you for your input. I want to clerk at the federal level, then I want to work for either my state AG (CA) the DOJ or a well known impact lit org (NAACP, ACLU, etc). I understand that my goals are lofty, but that's why they're goals. I would be reasonably content with ending up doing direct client services at a PD office, but I would definitely want that office to be located back here on the west coast. Not sure if that changes anything, but I was purposefully vague because I have little information on Emory's strengths and weaknesses.
negusdahabesha wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:58 pm
In terms of Emory, my main concern would be geographic flexibility and the "rolling the dice" aspect. I have no issue with working in Atlanta for some time. In fact, I would consider the other poster's hypo of ending up at the SPLC to be a rather ideal outcome. But I wouldn't be as happy being a PD in Atlanta, in comparison with CA. My family and my partner are here on the west coast, and it is where I ultimately want to be.
If the bolded is true, I don't think Emory is a very good idea. CCN, with the plan to rely on LRAP, is workable if you really are 100% sure you'd be okay working in a PD office in rural/suburban California for 10 years while being meticulous about complying with the terms of your loan-repayment plan and not having a pre-tax income greater than about $80k.

lolwat
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 am

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by lolwat » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:32 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm
Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).
I'm not as active here anymore so I'm a couple days late. Some of this I agree with; others I don't.

I 100% agree that if your goal is to practice in the Southeast area after graduation, then a full ride at Emory is a fantastic outcome. (It may be one of the best outcomes you can hope for--perhaps a significant scholarship at Duke or Vanderbilt being the only better outcomes.)

But in terms of jobs that "no one here can guarantee or even reasonably assure," my thought has always been that you go to a better school not to ensure that you absolutely can get those jobs, but that you open up the possibility of getting those jobs. It's not prestige whoring, it's that often, the school rankings correlate with these possibilities.

Also, Emory just isn't well connected to DC, California, and NYC--any of OP's target markets. Personally, although with only the admittedly somewhat limited information I have, I would just withdraw from consideration from Emory and deal with the remaining options instead.

User avatar
quiver
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:58 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by quiver » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:06 pm

lolwat wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:32 pm
UVA2B wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm
Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).
I'm not as active here anymore so I'm a couple days late. Some of this I agree with; others I don't.

I 100% agree that if your goal is to practice in the Southeast area after graduation, then a full ride at Emory is a fantastic outcome. (It may be one of the best outcomes you can hope for--perhaps a significant scholarship at Duke or Vanderbilt being the only better outcomes.)

But in terms of jobs that "no one here can guarantee or even reasonably assure," my thought has always been that you go to a better school not to ensure that you absolutely can get those jobs, but that you open up the possibility of getting those jobs. It's not prestige whoring, it's that often, the school rankings correlate with these possibilities.

Also, Emory just isn't well connected to DC, California, and NYC--any of OP's target markets. Personally, although with only the admittedly somewhat limited information I have, I would just withdraw from consideration from Emory and deal with the remaining options instead.
I agree with the bottom-line conclusion here (to withdraw from Emory) and focus on the remaining options or a full ride to some CA school like USC, UCLA, UCI, etc.

In terms of better schools opening up the possibility of elite outcomes, that's undoubtedly true. The issue is: at what cost? If someone said they were dead set on a SCOTUS clerkship, surely CCN would open up that possibility whereas Emory likely would not. But I don't think anyone would tell that person to go for CCN at whatever amount of debt for literally a 1% chance at a SCOTUS clerkship. Now, OP's goals aren't that extreme, but federal clerkship + DOJ, CA AG, or elite public interest is still a decidedly elite and minority outcome. So, I think UVA2B's point--with which I agree--is that it just makes more sense to focus on CA schools where OP clearly wants to be, or lower T14 with hopefully a good amount of money.

User avatar
UVA2B
Moderator
Posts: 3139
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by UVA2B » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:51 pm

I think (if I’m reading lolwat’s point in a way that is consistent with their general outlook on picking a law school) there is actually a valid disagreement here based on differing risk calculus. Lolwat has typically been more comfortable with spending for prestige in order to maximize the chance to achieve an outcome, because it’s obviously true that CCN will open more doors nationally and with elite outcomes than Emory would. My point of view is more of a medianist (should probably trademark that term now because I really like it), so assuming a median outcome makes that extra debt for prestigious outcomes far less palatable. And I would even concede that median at CCN doesn’t close doors to the OP’s stated outcomes necessarily, but it also doesn’t meaningfully guarantee that either, in which case you’ve paid for a non-winning and very expensive lottery ticket. Maybe that’s ok because the lottery ticket still led to what pretty much anyone going into it would call a great outcome, but if it’s not any of their stated goals (which also to be clear, we should usually treat 0L goals with some room for change, but might as well advise assuming those goals will carry through law school), then they’ve paid a lot of money for what could be called a disappointing result that wouldn’t spark joy.

It’s two schools of thought and neither is wrong, it’s just looking at the outcomes, the probabilities, and the costs differently, which I think is perfectly acceptable and healthy.

E: The implied point I was making is exactly what quiver mentions, which is that while may not be a Goldilocks school and debt outcome, the best options may have been other possible schools not listed, especially if you read their stated goals liberally and assume public interest in CA generally would’ve been a good outcome. UCI for a good discount sounds right to me here, but any CA school would’ve been great for that (though obviously not for DC and NYC, which if you include those markets, T14 becomes the list the OP should consider).

User avatar
beep
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:05 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by beep » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:07 pm

Hey_Everybody wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:14 pm
If your numbers are good enough to be in at CCN I would expect more than small scholarships in the lower T14. I got an over half tuition scholarship at my mid T14 and didn't get into any of CCN.
On the flipside, I ended my cycle with half tuition awards at two of CCN and less than a 50% acceptance rate at lower T14, and none with any significant money (no HYS, either). Thanks, Cornell, for your $15k (total) grant. Splitter and semi-splitter cycles can be weird. OP may also have applied late, which contributed to the weirdness in my cycle as well.

That said, agree with the overall point that the options likely will not be (or at least should not be) emory full ride on the one hand vs. CCN at sticker. There should be a middle ground if OP is applying widely, and hopefully a just-plain-better ground (full tuition at a T14/UCLA/Irvine/etc). If OP skipped some of the T14 (sounds like maybe?) and solid non-T14 CA schools (UCLA/Irvine), then this is absolutely a sit out the cycle situation assuming it's probably too late to get any significant money from those if applying today.

Also agree with the seeming consensus conclusion that Emory does not make sense for OP's goals, even with no debt. There are threads where the money vs. gold star outcomes debate is really determinative of the question (e.g. USC $$$ vs Berkeley $, MVP $$$ vs Harvard $). Based only on the info in this post, I don't think this is one of those situations, at least with respect to ruling out the possible Emory scholarship.

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:38 am

quiver wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:06 pm
lolwat wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:32 pm
UVA2B wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm
Emory's full tuition scholarship is sufficiently new that we can't accurately tell you whether you're competitive, so let's leave that alone. If you wanted to practice in the Southeast after graduation, and you were willing to roll the dice in that region, Emory with the Woodruff would be a fantastic outcome. But all of your goals don't suggest that, which leads to the more complicated problem. You want jobs that no one here can guarantee or even reasonably reassure. Going to Chicago may give you a 20% shot of starting with a federal clerkship in theory, but that doesn't mean you should take on $300k of debt for that possibility. Same goes for NYU, Columbia, UVA, Duke, or any other school you're trying to compare to Emory.

If you definitely want to practice in CA, you should focus on schools in that region, such as UCI and Davis, while hoping for Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc. You will be risking all of your lofty goals if you don't end up top of your class, but in the grand scheme of things, better to end up in a job you like in a location you want. The alternative is a good job in a location you didn't want from the outset if you don't absolutely crush law school (which you can't plan to do).
I'm not as active here anymore so I'm a couple days late. Some of this I agree with; others I don't.

I 100% agree that if your goal is to practice in the Southeast area after graduation, then a full ride at Emory is a fantastic outcome. (It may be one of the best outcomes you can hope for--perhaps a significant scholarship at Duke or Vanderbilt being the only better outcomes.)

But in terms of jobs that "no one here can guarantee or even reasonably assure," my thought has always been that you go to a better school not to ensure that you absolutely can get those jobs, but that you open up the possibility of getting those jobs. It's not prestige whoring, it's that often, the school rankings correlate with these possibilities.

Also, Emory just isn't well connected to DC, California, and NYC--any of OP's target markets. Personally, although with only the admittedly somewhat limited information I have, I would just withdraw from consideration from Emory and deal with the remaining options instead.
I agree with the bottom-line conclusion here (to withdraw from Emory) and focus on the remaining options or a full ride to some CA school like USC, UCLA, UCI, etc.

In terms of better schools opening up the possibility of elite outcomes, that's undoubtedly true. The issue is: at what cost? If someone said they were dead set on a SCOTUS clerkship, surely CCN would open up that possibility whereas Emory likely would not. But I don't think anyone would tell that person to go for CCN at whatever amount of debt for literally a 1% chance at a SCOTUS clerkship. Now, OP's goals aren't that extreme, but federal clerkship + DOJ, CA AG, or elite public interest is still a decidedly elite and minority outcome. So, I think UVA2B's point--with which I agree--is that it just makes more sense to focus on CA schools where OP clearly wants to be, or lower T14 with hopefully a good amount of money.
Again, I really appreciate everyone trying to help me out! For starters, I did not apply to USC, UCI, or any other schools in California besides UCLA and Berkeley. Anywhere close to a full ride at UCLA would be my play, although I'm still holding out on NYU's Root. I have spent extensive time living and working on UCI's campus, and I know I would not be happy there. I am also decidedly unimpressed by USC, and have enough experience with their law school to feel confident in my decision. Unfortunately, that only leaves me with UCLA in California. It is important to me to maximize my opportunities for my stated outcomes in the most financially reasonable way possible. But at the same time I also agree with UVA2B in that, although I can't specifically quantify it, my willingness to merely keep those options open is well below a six figure difference in COA.

The hardest part about where I am currently at in this process is that most law schools have not gotten back to me about financial aid or scholly info, and won't have before I have to get back to Emory. I am trying to keep every option on the table until I have as much information as possible, but that seems next to impossible. I won't hear from some schools until late next month. That's not to say that I am expecting much, but I just really have no clue what to expect. For all intents and purposes, I am "outperforming" my numbers by a significant enough margin that I don't think anyone can really tell me what to confidently expect in terms of aid. I really hope there is some sort of middle ground, but I don't want to close the door on a full ride without having any degree of certainty money will come from somewhere...

I reached out to UCLA to inform them about the woody. It'd be nice if they make my decision for me. I want to be in CA long term, but I would be happy, and might even prefer, starting my career as a PD (safer assumption than other desired outcomes) anywhere in NY, DC or CA.

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:58 am

beep wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:07 pm
Hey_Everybody wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:14 pm
If your numbers are good enough to be in at CCN I would expect more than small scholarships in the lower T14. I got an over half tuition scholarship at my mid T14 and didn't get into any of CCN.
On the flipside, I ended my cycle with half tuition awards at two of CCN and less than a 50% acceptance rate at lower T14, and none with any significant money (no HYS, either). Thanks, Cornell, for your $15k (total) grant. Splitter and semi-splitter cycles can be weird. OP may also have applied late, which contributed to the weirdness in my cycle as well.

That said, agree with the overall point that the options likely will not be (or at least should not be) emory full ride on the one hand vs. CCN at sticker. There should be a middle ground if OP is applying widely, and hopefully a just-plain-better ground (full tuition at a T14/UCLA/Irvine/etc). If OP skipped some of the T14 (sounds like maybe?) and solid non-T14 CA schools (UCLA/Irvine), then this is absolutely a sit out the cycle situation assuming it's probably too late to get any significant money from those if applying today.

Also agree with the seeming consensus conclusion that Emory does not make sense for OP's goals, even with no debt. There are threads where the money vs. gold star outcomes debate is really determinative of the question (e.g. USC $$$ vs Berkeley $, MVP $$$ vs Harvard $). Based only on the info in this post, I don't think this is one of those situations, at least with respect to ruling out the possible Emory scholarship.
The combination of my stats and the fact that I applied mid December probably play a significant role in my weird cycle. The only schools in the t14 I won't have applied to are Stanford and Cornell. I have been denied from Harvard and Berkeley, and accepted everywhere else except Penn, Northwestern, and Yale (lol, but at least the app was free) who have yet to get back to me. I'd say applying to 12/14 plus a few safeties isn't leaving much out.. Again, not sure when I'll hear back about aid or how much to expect given the few data points available for people like me.

Y'all have definitely helped me sort out some stuff, but for someone who is rather debt averse on the whole it's objectively scary to see sticker prices at all these other places I've been accepted to, have no clue what COA will actually be, AND turn down an all but guaranteed full ride (pretty much everyone who is a woody finalist gets a full ride..) Anyone wanna let me know around when they heard back about aid from any of the above schools??

lolwat
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 am

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by lolwat » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:36 am

UVA2B wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:51 pm
I think (if I’m reading lolwat’s point in a way that is consistent with their general outlook on picking a law school) there is actually a valid disagreement here based on differing risk calculus. Lolwat has typically been more comfortable with spending for prestige in order to maximize the chance to achieve an outcome, because it’s obviously true that CCN will open more doors nationally and with elite outcomes than Emory would. My point of view is more of a medianist (should probably trademark that term now because I really like it), so assuming a median outcome makes that extra debt for prestigious outcomes far less palatable. And I would even concede that median at CCN doesn’t close doors to the OP’s stated outcomes necessarily, but it also doesn’t meaningfully guarantee that either, in which case you’ve paid for a non-winning and very expensive lottery ticket. Maybe that’s ok because the lottery ticket still led to what pretty much anyone going into it would call a great outcome, but if it’s not any of their stated goals (which also to be clear, we should usually treat 0L goals with some room for change, but might as well advise assuming those goals will carry through law school), then they’ve paid a lot of money for what could be called a disappointing result that wouldn’t spark joy.

It’s two schools of thought and neither is wrong, it’s just looking at the outcomes, the probabilities, and the costs differently, which I think is perfectly acceptable and healthy.

E: The implied point I was making is exactly what quiver mentions, which is that while may not be a Goldilocks school and debt outcome, the best options may have been other possible schools not listed, especially if you read their stated goals liberally and assume public interest in CA generally would’ve been a good outcome. UCI for a good discount sounds right to me here, but any CA school would’ve been great for that (though obviously not for DC and NYC, which if you include those markets, T14 becomes the list the OP should consider).
I like your use of "medianist" and then "spark joy" at the end. :)

And yeah, it's not like I have a massive disagreement with you and quiver's analyses at all. The only nuance I would add--and I think your post captured it because you've seen enough of my previous posts before--is that I don't just blindly advocate for taking a T6 (or T14) at sticker over a lower-ranked school at a reasonable scholarship. It's far more about balancing between having little to no debt and opening opportunities, and what each individual states their desired outcomes to be.

OP: I think it's worth waiting as long as you can to see how much you get from the other schools. I don't know as much as others about aid here, but given your acceptances and that you're under consideration for a full ride from Emory, I doubt you'll be paying sticker at any of the T14s... It's been so long I don't remember when aid money comes in, though.

I'd still stick with my initial thought that you're far better off at a T14 with national reach given your goals than you are at Emory. it's just harder to give any more concrete advice than that until you've got actual numbers coming in. I wouldn't advocate for taking on $200-300k debt for example, but if it's something like $100k, that's a lot more palatable (it's still "six figures," but it's not bad).

User avatar
Toni
Posts: 516
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Toni » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:01 pm

Once again, if you’re up for no-school debt. Emory. Here’s why ― with good grades your odds of landing at one of Atlanta’s top two headquartered[ [V] firms are excellent. Once there, you will receive numerous headhunter calls offering you fantastic opportunities ― then you can move ahead at will. Did I mention, no debt?

User avatar
UVA2B
Moderator
Posts: 3139
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by UVA2B » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:15 pm

Toni wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:01 pm
Once again, if you’re up for no-school debt. Emory. Here’s why ― with good grades your odds of landing at one of Atlanta’s top two headquartered[ [V] firms are excellent. Once there, you will receive numerous headhunter calls offering you fantastic opportunities ― then you can move ahead at will. Did I mention, no debt?
You say dumb things. Stop doing that.

User avatar
icechicken
Lost in the sauce
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:14 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by icechicken » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Yeah, the remote possibility of getting Atlanta biglaw and then lateraling to the West Coast and then transitioning into PI adds basically nothing to Emory's appeal here.

negusdahabesha
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by negusdahabesha » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:20 pm

Toni wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:01 pm
Once again, if you’re up for no-school debt. Emory. Here’s why ― with good grades your odds of landing at one of Atlanta’s top two headquartered[ [V] firms are excellent. Once there, you will receive numerous headhunter calls offering you fantastic opportunities ― then you can move ahead at will. Did I mention, no debt?
Believe me, I am more than enticed by no debt. Your proposed hypo, however, couldn't possibly be less appealing to me.. I don't want to work in biglaw at all if I don't have to, and I definitely don't want to do it in Atlanta. Based on your hypo, it would be close to a decade before I was both in a city I want and doing a job I can actually tolerate (at the minimum)

User avatar
Jubo
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Jubo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:20 pm

I’m going to throw my vote in for the “CCN if 100% committed to not-so-lucrative PI (would federal clerking exclude you from LRAP?), cheapest T14 if unsure.”

You’re not going to get desirable outcomes, whether it is clerking, biglaw, or impact lit or whatever, without like top 20% grades or so at Emory. That’s too big a risk to bet 3 years of your life.

Don’t forget you can use CCN acceptances to leverage for more scholarship from lower T14 schools.

User avatar
Toni
Posts: 516
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by Toni » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:34 pm

negusdahabesha wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:20 pm
Toni wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:01 pm
Once again, if you’re up for no-school debt. Emory. Here’s why ― with good grades your odds of landing at one of Atlanta’s top two headquartered[ [V] firms are excellent. Once there, you will receive numerous headhunter calls offering you fantastic opportunities ― then you can move ahead at will. Did I mention, no debt?
Believe me, I am more than enticed by no debt. Your proposed hypo, however, couldn't possibly be less appealing to me.. I don't want to work in biglaw at all if I don't have to, and I definitely don't want to do it in Atlanta. Based on your hypo, it would be close to a decade before I was both in a city I want and doing a job I can actually tolerate (at the minimum)
I disagree with the bolded underlined. FME, maybe a little over a year. The headhunters will call with openings, the trick is to tell them what you want. Not that hard. But yeah, if a year is too long, grab your checkbook.

User avatar
quiver
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:58 pm

Re: Emory's Woodruff vs T6

Post by quiver » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:21 pm

lolwat wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:36 am
UVA2B wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:51 pm
I think (if I’m reading lolwat’s point in a way that is consistent with their general outlook on picking a law school) there is actually a valid disagreement here based on differing risk calculus. Lolwat has typically been more comfortable with spending for prestige in order to maximize the chance to achieve an outcome, because it’s obviously true that CCN will open more doors nationally and with elite outcomes than Emory would. My point of view is more of a medianist (should probably trademark that term now because I really like it), so assuming a median outcome makes that extra debt for prestigious outcomes far less palatable. And I would even concede that median at CCN doesn’t close doors to the OP’s stated outcomes necessarily, but it also doesn’t meaningfully guarantee that either, in which case you’ve paid for a non-winning and very expensive lottery ticket. Maybe that’s ok because the lottery ticket still led to what pretty much anyone going into it would call a great outcome, but if it’s not any of their stated goals (which also to be clear, we should usually treat 0L goals with some room for change, but might as well advise assuming those goals will carry through law school), then they’ve paid a lot of money for what could be called a disappointing result that wouldn’t spark joy.

It’s two schools of thought and neither is wrong, it’s just looking at the outcomes, the probabilities, and the costs differently, which I think is perfectly acceptable and healthy.

E: The implied point I was making is exactly what quiver mentions, which is that while may not be a Goldilocks school and debt outcome, the best options may have been other possible schools not listed, especially if you read their stated goals liberally and assume public interest in CA generally would’ve been a good outcome. UCI for a good discount sounds right to me here, but any CA school would’ve been great for that (though obviously not for DC and NYC, which if you include those markets, T14 becomes the list the OP should consider).
I like your use of "medianist" and then "spark joy" at the end. :)

And yeah, it's not like I have a massive disagreement with you and quiver's analyses at all. The only nuance I would add--and I think your post captured it because you've seen enough of my previous posts before--is that I don't just blindly advocate for taking a T6 (or T14) at sticker over a lower-ranked school at a reasonable scholarship. It's far more about balancing between having little to no debt and opening opportunities, and what each individual states their desired outcomes to be.

OP: I think it's worth waiting as long as you can to see how much you get from the other schools. I don't know as much as others about aid here, but given your acceptances and that you're under consideration for a full ride from Emory, I doubt you'll be paying sticker at any of the T14s... It's been so long I don't remember when aid money comes in, though.

I'd still stick with my initial thought that you're far better off at a T14 with national reach given your goals than you are at Emory. it's just harder to give any more concrete advice than that until you've got actual numbers coming in. I wouldn't advocate for taking on $200-300k debt for example, but if it's something like $100k, that's a lot more palatable (it's still "six figures," but it's not bad).
That's all fair. I certainly didn't mean to make it seem like your position was CCN or bust with no nuances. I think we're all on the same page in terms of OP's choice coming down to how much s/he weighs debt + more possibilities vs. no debt + more limited possibilities.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests