THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
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Platopus
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Platopus » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:26 pm

merintil wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:43 pm
Hello all,

I submit to everyone's wisdom regarding whether I am making the right choice to attend the schools below at their current total COA and their employment opportunities after graduation. I am also currently on the waitlist for GULC, Vanderbilt, and USC (and I do have an acceptance at UC Irvine at near half tuition scholarship). I am not sure if I am necro'ing a thread as the last post hasn't been in some time, and if I am committing an error, I sincerely apologize.

-The schools you are considering - William & Mary and Washington & Lee

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. - W&M: $36K over three years after interest W&L: $47K over three years after interest (both numbers rounded up to the nearest thousand)

For all intents and purposes William & Mary and Washington & Lee are essentially peer schools and will give you roughly the same shot at your goals. Tuition difference is marginal between them, but $11K is $11K. However, the debt load at each is relatively modest, and so I think either is a justifiable choice. I don't think any of your wait-list schools would be justifiable at (near) sticker, so I would scratch them off the list. I would go to ASW's and get a feel for which school you like best and choose based on that.

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:49 pm

Platopus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:26 pm
merintil wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:43 pm
Hello all,

I submit to everyone's wisdom regarding whether I am making the right choice to attend the schools below at their current total COA and their employment opportunities after graduation. I am also currently on the waitlist for GULC, Vanderbilt, and USC (and I do have an acceptance at UC Irvine at near half tuition scholarship). I am not sure if I am necro'ing a thread as the last post hasn't been in some time, and if I am committing an error, I sincerely apologize.

-The schools you are considering - William & Mary and Washington & Lee

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. - W&M: $36K over three years after interest W&L: $47K over three years after interest (both numbers rounded up to the nearest thousand)

For all intents and purposes William & Mary and Washington & Lee are essentially peer schools and will give you roughly the same shot at your goals. Tuition difference is marginal between them, but $11K is $11K. However, the debt load at each is relatively modest, and so I think either is a justifiable choice. I don't think any of your wait-list schools would be justifiable at (near) sticker, so I would scratch them off the list. I would go to ASW's and get a feel for which school you like best and choose based on that.
Based on the W&L thread, OP has already visited both schools for ASW. I think the right answer is to go with your gut. You can dig and dig and dig at employment stats, but Platopus is right. They're peer schools, they place in basically the same regions (and are especially equivalent in your target region), your COA is essentially the same at each (even if I think your estimate sounds low). The school you felt right at is likely the right choice.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:03 pm

I don't know the government contract litigation practice area very well. Definitely something biglaw has in northern Virginia but those schools aren't placing tons of people in biglaw. I imagine there are smaller firms you could also land in.

All things being equal, W&M seems cheaper based on your assessment. I don't think the rankings discrepancy between the two is meaningful, but maybe locals can better evaluate that.

Edit: was going to suggest factoring in distance to DC, but there's only a half hour difference, so I guess that doesn't help.

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:50 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:03 pm
I don't know the government contract litigation practice area very well. Definitely something biglaw has in northern Virginia but those schools aren't placing tons of people in biglaw. I imagine there are smaller firms you could also land in.

All things being equal, W&M seems cheaper based on your assessment. I don't think the rankings discrepancy between the two is meaningful, but maybe locals can better evaluate that.

Edit: was going to suggest factoring in distance to DC, but there's only a half hour difference, so I guess that doesn't help.
Speaking as a current W&L 1L, the rankings discrepancy between the two is meaningless. We're competing for the same jobs at the same firms in the same cities, with maybe a little better placement for W&L in Alabama and Texas (no, I don't really understand why, I think it's just where we have a strong alumni network), and slightly better overall biglaw placement for W&M, but none of these to the degree to make the distinctions meaningful.

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merintil
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by merintil » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:17 pm

Platopus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:26 pm

For all intents and purposes William & Mary and Washington & Lee are essentially peer schools and will give you roughly the same shot at your goals. Tuition difference is marginal between them, but $11K is $11K. However, the debt load at each is relatively modest, and so I think either is a justifiable choice. I don't think any of your wait-list schools would be justifiable at (near) sticker, so I would scratch them off the list. I would go to ASW's and get a feel for which school you like best and choose based on that.
Thank you for the advice! I did, as Stranger mentioned, did visit both schools' ASW events, and I ended up feeling great about both of them. In the end, $11k is not an amount I can simply neglect though I do recognize that in the overall picture, perhaps it is not that big of a difference.
Stranger wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:49 pm

Based on the W&L thread, OP has already visited both schools for ASW. I think the right answer is to go with your gut. You can dig and dig and dig at employment stats, but Platopus is right. They're peer schools, they place in basically the same regions (and are especially equivalent in your target region), your COA is essentially the same at each (even if I think your estimate sounds low). The school you felt right at is likely the right choice.
Thank you very much to you Stranger, especially, for answering my questions throughout the cycle. I was internally hoping that there was something that I was missing outside of deferring my decision to my gut, really anything that could make this decision clear-cut.

I am hoping that my COA estimate is not too low; I modified a COA spreadsheet I found on the old forum to match current Stafford loan rates. I do admit that I may have underestimated the rent costs (the rent situation will highly depend on whether I can find a roommate as well as whether or not I stay in Williamsburg/Lexington in the summer, which is not too likely I imagine. I was planning on living with my SO who will remain in the DC region during those months). I only just learned that my mother is willing to help me out with my overall law school costs, which has drastically decreased the total COA.
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:03 pm
I don't know the government contract litigation practice area very well. Definitely something biglaw has in northern Virginia but those schools aren't placing tons of people in biglaw. I imagine there are smaller firms you could also land in.

All things being equal, W&M seems cheaper based on your assessment. I don't think the rankings discrepancy between the two is meaningful, but maybe locals can better evaluate that.

Edit: was going to suggest factoring in distance to DC, but there's only a half hour difference, so I guess that doesn't help.
From what I can gather, there are multiple big law firms in nova and in DC that practice government contract litigation (whether they call it government contracts or public procurement varies). I do understand that the two schools in question do not place many people in big law, but I would be happy with working for the Fed or for the commonwealth's attorney. I should probably note that my current company has mentioned to me multiple times that they would like to see me work for them as an in-house attorney in the future, but I don't have anything in writing so I have written it off until I get some sort of letter as proof.

Thank you for the advice!

Overall, I am leaning towards W&M if only because I felt the same way at that school as I had felt at W&L, but W&M would be cheaper with near-equivalent employment outcomes. My one concern is whether I can be a median or above median student, and because I don't have any comparable school experience to law school, I honestly think that how well I perform will largely be a function of luck and hard work. Again, thank you all for the help!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Mittens7 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:17 pm

Hello, sacred ashram. I'm torn between UCLA and UPenn. Waitlisted: UChi, Columbia, and NU. Rejected: HLS (duh), SLS (duh), Berkeley (duh but ouch). Still waiting on Duke, Michigan, and NYU, but would only consider NYU at this point (due to my partner's job hunt).

-GPA/LSAT: 3.5, 173 (taken once).

-Schools considering: UCLA and UPenn

-COA: UCLA = ~$130K ($70K scholarship). UPenn = $273K (no word on scholarship, not expecting much).

-Financing COA: I've saved up $90K, and my parents have generously offered to loan me $150K w/o interest. Otherwise: loans. I have a partner who will share living expenses, so my COA may be lower than listed.

-Geographic goals: I'm from Northern California, my entire family is still there, and I want to return to work/raise a family. I went to undergrad in New England and have worked here in the 3.5 years since, in environmental advocacy and currently as a USAO paralegal.

-Career goals: BigLaw litigation--land use/real estate, but I'd like to end my career in PI environmental law of some kind.

I'm 25 and am getting married this summer. My partner is a teacher, and he's job hunting in the LA/Philly/NYC metro areas. Nothing is locked down yet. Because his job hunt is time-sensitive, I don't think riding waitlists is an option unless he agrees to retain his current job and we do long distance. As we've already done three years in the past, he's reluctant to do this. I've had a lot of positive contact from UCLA about their environmental law opportunities and I love UCLA's California focus, but Penn's BigLaw numbers and 10% placement in CA make me feel more secure as I consider competing with Berkeley + Stanford grads in the NorCal market. Although I have yet to visit the law schools officially, I've seen both before, and could be happy at either. I just don't know which school would set me up better for the NorCal BL market.
Last edited by Mittens7 on Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:02 pm

Hard to accurately say without actual data, but anecdotally, I see a fair number of UCLA law grads working in Northern California. Presumably Penn would arguably have more cachet for some firms. But UCLA really punches above its weight with biglaw placement, and it would save you a lot of money.

I'm sure the more conservative folks will disagree with me, but I vote UCLA. It makes more sense geographically, the COA is radically more affordable to you and your family, and if you have to be long distance with your partner, assuming he's in Northern California, it wouldn't be very far.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Mittens7 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:03 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Hard to accurately say without actual data, but anecdotally, I see a fair number of UCLA law grads working in Northern California. Presumably Penn would arguably have more cachet for some firms. But UCLA really punches above its weight with biglaw placement, and it would save you a lot of money.

I'm sure the more conservative folks will disagree with me, but I vote UCLA. It makes more sense geographically, the COA is radically more affordable to you and your family, and if you have to be long distance with your partner, assuming he's in Northern California, it wouldn't be very far.
My partner is actually out with me on the East Coast, where we're both working now. No matter where we go, he's job hunting (he's unwilling to do long distance again).

I'm just worried about competing with Stanford/Berkeley grads...

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:18 pm

Mittens7 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:03 pm
I'm just worried about competing with Stanford/Berkeley grads...
Well, you'd be competing with some number of them, but only about 40% of Stanford grads and 60% of Berkeley grads are staying in California. That compares to 80% of UCLA grads. If your entire family's from Northern California, you should have an easy time demonstrating ties there, and should be able to find a summer internship up that way after 1L year, which would allow you to network with the Bay Area firms pretty easily.

UCLA releases their NALP report, which gives solid information about city-level placement in CA for UCLA (and you can find this for Berkeley, too). https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/d ... 7/ucla.pdf The upshot of it is that over half of UCLA's California-based grads land in LA itself. That's going to partly be self-selection, and partly what the easiest opportunities to obtain are out of UCLA. You will have to work harder to get to Northern California, but then, you'd have to work to get back there from Penn, too. So, consider it this way: would you be okay landing in a decent job in LA itself straight out of school with significantly lower debt and no interest on it? Or would you rather take a higher-prestige school at considerably higher debt with the risk that missing out on Bay Area biglaw lands you in NY? I would guess that being in LA with the California bar already under your belt would be preferable while you try to maneuver your way to NorCal, but I could be wrong.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:29 pm

To add to Stranger's comment, lateral opportunities once you're in biglaw and midlaw in California are numerous, across the state. I get pinged by recruiters for LA frequently, and I had a colleague recently decamp for LA from here in northern California.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by motherofdragons » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:03 pm

-Georgetown Law and UCI

-Both COAs are around $170,000 which includes $30,000 undergraduate debt and its interest.

-Georgetown offered $158,000 scholarship. UCI a $90,000. I will have $5000 of personal funds to help with expenses. I will have no family support. I plan to create a GoFundMe page for anyone that wants to support my studies.

-I am from CA and have strong ties in both SF and LA. I want to work in SF, LA, San Diego, or Las Vegas.

-I want to do Big Law and/or a federal clerkship, and then perhaps go into government/public office/public office staff

-167/3.0

-I've taken the LSAT 3 times.

-I am currently employed in the public sector at a university. My current salary is $65,000 a year and take home pay is around $3500 a month. I will be losing out on salary for 3 years, any raises and any promotions. There are also moving costs from CA to DC and perhaps even affect my current long term relationship.

-I am URM.

Should I bite the bullet and go to Georgetown? Thank you!

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UVA2B
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:22 pm

First things first: given your current numbers, that's a pretty strong offer from GULC, and I'm actually surprised UCI with such a smaller tuition discount is approximately the same price. Are you positive on the COA calculation there? $158k is near a full ride for GULC, so assuming all other COL and expenses, i would expect that number to be less. I haven't crunched the numbers to double check your math, but GULC COA seems high and/or UCI COA would be low, even for in-state.

If they truly are the same price, and you definitely want Biglaw, then GULC is the easy choice, but that doesn't necessarily make this an easy choice by itself. GULC does a decent job of placing into Biglaw, but in order to reasonably expect it, you'll need to be comfortable with possibly not ending up in Southern California or the Southwest, because a not insignificant portion of the class at GULC will be in NYC, and that's not strictly by choice. The reality for T14 median graduates wanting Biglaw is that they'll likely have to be open to the idea of starting their career in NYC, simply because that's where the majority of Biglaw jobs are and NYC Biglaw tends to be the least grade conscious. So assuming you end up somewhere around median at GULC, you'll likely need to either be comfortable with NYC Biglaw as a reasonable option and/or missing out on Biglaw in the Southern California (and SF isn't markedly better/easier).

If you had to sacrifice Biglaw or sacrifice location, which would you choose to sacrifice, knowing it means you're likely to give up either the high salary of Biglaw or the desirable locations out West? None of this is to say that you couldn't make your way to CA or the West out of GULC, because you definitely could, but a lot will depend on your performance in 1L year, which you can't reasonably predict right now, which is why you will likely need to assume you're somewhere near median GPA. Based on what I know of CA Biglaw, medianish from a lower T14 is by no means safe to get you there, even with ties to the bigger markets.

Critical to your decision, assuming these are your only two options and you don't decide to retake the LSAT for possibly better options (not saying you should or absolutely need to, but just that you would change the decision if you opened up other opportunities in the next application cycle), how you feel about non-CA vs. non-Biglaw outcomes should probably drive your decision (again, assuming you've accurately calculated COA based on those scholarship amounts). If you want a better chance of Biglaw, even if it doesn't necessarily mean CA or in the West, GULC and its not close. If you'd ultimately care more about being in Southern California, even if it means you miss out on the BIglaw and/or fed clerk train, then UCI is the better conduit for getting you there.

Unfortunately your GPA will always be somewhat a problem in limiting your options, so this very well may be a best case scenario for you (or close to it), but just understand that you need to accept some risk in your goals. If you understand those risks and how they could affect your outcome, picking either GULC or UCI could be defensible here.

Good luck!

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm

We don't usually include the undergraduate debt in the school's COA, but it's good to know what your total debt at repayment will be. Faced with equal costs between those two institutions, the choice is almost inevitably Georgetown. Georgetown has seen something of a return to mean lately, and it's almost fair to talk about the "T14" again (though really, with Vanderbilt posting comparable or better employment numbers than Georgetown on a regular basis, we may have to reconsider that terminology yet again if we decide to leave behind T13). The gap between Georgetown and Michigan in BL+FC employment this year was smaller than the gap between Michigan and NYU (and I consider these three, along with Berkeley, to be somewhat comparable in terms of schools which churn out biglaw types while trying to encourage a PI culture).

If you don't believe you have reached your ceiling on the LSAT, one more shot may be worth it. Otherwise, this is a pretty solid outcome for your numbers, as your GPA is a liability, and your LSAT not quite into the range to make adcoms drool (they still want you, mind you, they're just not going to embarrass themselves to get you). I do believe that Georgetown can place you well enough in the markets you're seeking, especially given your strong California ties, that a good showing 1L year would mean California biglaw (UVA2B has addressed the median scenario already). Irvine would basically land you back in the same markets with a lower margin for error on making biglaw.

Now, there's also the option of initially trying to go back to California in a government role if you miss out on California biglaw, which I don't doubt you could do from Georgetown (and their LRAP would help some with your loan payments, though I believe Irvine also has one - perhaps the PI thread can help compare the two). It would probably take similar performance at either school to see California biglaw, and you could probably do California government work out of either if you missed it thanks to your ties, but Georgetown would gain you the option of New York biglaw in grade ranges where that just isn't an option at Irvine.

I'd side Georgetown here, assuming the numbers really work out as you say, because I believe you don't truly cut off any options by taking it, while you do gain the NY biglaw option.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:21 pm

I think UC Irvine isn't a bad option, but I think UVA2B accurately captures your choice: do you want improved chances at biglaw at the expense of some opportunity to go back to California right away, or improved chances at California, at the expense of some opportunity to break into biglaw?

Your odds of biglaw at UC Irvine aren't horrible, but they're definitely reduced compared to Georgetown.

Weigh which is more important to you. And bear in mind that the main way into biglaw is as a summer associate or through a federal clerkship. Both Georgetown and UC Irvine do better than many schools on this front, but Georgetown does a little better.

motherofdragons
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by motherofdragons » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:31 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:22 pm
First things first: given your current numbers, that's a pretty strong offer from GULC, and I'm actually surprised UCI with such a smaller tuition discount is approximately the same price. Are you positive on the COA calculation there? $158k is near a full ride for GULC, so assuming all other COL and expenses, i would expect that number to be less. I haven't crunched the numbers to double check your math, but GULC COA seems high and/or UCI COA would be low, even for in-state.

If they truly are the same price, and you definitely want Biglaw, then GULC is the easy choice, but that doesn't necessarily make this an easy choice by itself. GULC does a decent job of placing into Biglaw, but in order to reasonably expect it, you'll need to be comfortable with possibly not ending up in Southern California or the Southwest, because a not insignificant portion of the class at GULC will be in NYC, and that's not strictly by choice. The reality for T14 median graduates wanting Biglaw is that they'll likely have to be open to the idea of starting their career in NYC, simply because that's where the majority of Biglaw jobs are and NYC Biglaw tends to be the least grade conscious. So assuming you end up somewhere around median at GULC, you'll likely need to either be comfortable with NYC Biglaw as a reasonable option and/or missing out on Biglaw in the Southern California (and SF isn't markedly better/easier).

If you had to sacrifice Biglaw or sacrifice location, which would you choose to sacrifice, knowing it means you're likely to give up either the high salary of Biglaw or the desirable locations out West? None of this is to say that you couldn't make your way to CA or the West out of GULC, because you definitely could, but a lot will depend on your performance in 1L year, which you can't reasonably predict right now, which is why you will likely need to assume you're somewhere near median GPA. Based on what I know of CA Biglaw, medianish from a lower T14 is by no means safe to get you there, even with ties to the bigger markets.

Critical to your decision, assuming these are your only two options and you don't decide to retake the LSAT for possibly better options (not saying you should or absolutely need to, but just that you would change the decision if you opened up other opportunities in the next application cycle), how you feel about non-CA vs. non-Biglaw outcomes should probably drive your decision (again, assuming you've accurately calculated COA based on those scholarship amounts). If you want a better chance of Biglaw, even if it doesn't necessarily mean CA or in the West, GULC and its not close. If you'd ultimately care more about being in Southern California, even if it means you miss out on the BIglaw and/or fed clerk train, then UCI is the better conduit for getting you there.

Unfortunately your GPA will always be somewhat a problem in limiting your options, so this very well may be a best case scenario for you (or close to it), but just understand that you need to accept some risk in your goals. If you understand those risks and how they could affect your outcome, picking either GULC or UCI could be defensible here.

Good luck!
Dear UVA 2B,

I recalculated UCI COA without my undergrad debt using AccessLex calculator, https://www.accesslex.org/student-loan-calculator. The UCI COA is $112,000 if I live on campus all 3 years. I had used off-campus costs and increased my cost. The total COA from Georgetown Law is $131,000. It will cost $20,000 more to attend Georgetown over UCI. With the new cost, should I reevaluate my choices? Does UCI win over Georgetown?

Thank you for the reality that I might not end up in CA right after Georgetown. I do not mind spending a few years in NYC after law school but it is not ideal. Plus, I have never lived in NYC and I think living in NYC for a bit could be an awesome experience! I've heard on reddit that it is possible to lateral to CA from a NYC office. In your opinion, is that a viable option?

At the moment, I'll rather sacrifice location than big law opportunity. I can always travel to CA if needed for any emergencies or important events.

Thank you for all your work in this forum and thank you for the advice!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by motherofdragons » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:35 pm

Stranger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm
We don't usually include the undergraduate debt in the school's COA, but it's good to know what your total debt at repayment will be. Faced with equal costs between those two institutions, the choice is almost inevitably Georgetown. Georgetown has seen something of a return to mean lately, and it's almost fair to talk about the "T14" again (though really, with Vanderbilt posting comparable or better employment numbers than Georgetown on a regular basis, we may have to reconsider that terminology yet again if we decide to leave behind T13). The gap between Georgetown and Michigan in BL+FC employment this year was smaller than the gap between Michigan and NYU (and I consider these three, along with Berkeley, to be somewhat comparable in terms of schools which churn out biglaw types while trying to encourage a PI culture).

If you don't believe you have reached your ceiling on the LSAT, one more shot may be worth it. Otherwise, this is a pretty solid outcome for your numbers, as your GPA is a liability, and your LSAT not quite into the range to make adcoms drool (they still want you, mind you, they're just not going to embarrass themselves to get you). I do believe that Georgetown can place you well enough in the markets you're seeking, especially given your strong California ties, that a good showing 1L year would mean California biglaw (UVA2B has addressed the median scenario already). Irvine would basically land you back in the same markets with a lower margin for error on making biglaw.

Now, there's also the option of initially trying to go back to California in a government role if you miss out on California biglaw, which I don't doubt you could do from Georgetown (and their LRAP would help some with your loan payments, though I believe Irvine also has one - perhaps the PI thread can help compare the two). It would probably take similar performance at either school to see California biglaw, and you could probably do California government work out of either if you missed it thanks to your ties, but Georgetown would gain you the option of New York biglaw in grade ranges where that just isn't an option at Irvine.

I'd side Georgetown here, assuming the numbers really work out as you say, because I believe you don't truly cut off any options by taking it, while you do gain the NY biglaw option.

Dear Stranger,

I recalculated the COA for both schools. I had used off-campus information for UCI and thus increased the costs. UCI total COA is around $112,000 and Georgetown COA is $132,000. With the new numbers, is the choice still inevitably Georgetown? I am glad Georgetown has earned its T14 status for now and I don't mind adding Vanderbilt to make the new T15! I've though about taking the LSAT again since I was PT 167-170 and scored a 168 my 2nd time and a 164 my 3rd time.

Thank you. I cut off less options and gain options if I take Georgetown or UCI. Thank you for your support Stranger. Thank you.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by motherofdragons » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:37 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:21 pm
I think UC Irvine isn't a bad option, but I think UVA2B accurately captures your choice: do you want improved chances at biglaw at the expense of some opportunity to go back to California right away, or improved chances at California, at the expense of some opportunity to break into biglaw?

Your odds of biglaw at UC Irvine aren't horrible, but they're definitely reduced compared to Georgetown.

Weigh which is more important to you. And bear in mind that the main way into biglaw is as a summer associate or through a federal clerkship. Both Georgetown and UC Irvine do better than many schools on this front, but Georgetown does a little better.
Dear HelloYesThisIsDog,

I would rather sacrifice location than Big Law. CA will always be there and can always return home later.

Seems like Georgetown is my clear choice. Thank you!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by FamousNoble734 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:56 am

-The schools you are considering:

GULC (ED'd whoops). Last cycle I was admitted to BC/BU/Fordham, so I could probably go that route again if I wanted to wait a year.

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.

$210k for GULC. That is through loans and includes capitalized interest. Last year's offers for the BC/BU/Fordham group came to $120k-140k. So the decision is am I better off going that route next year, or going for GULC this year?

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

$30k total scholarship to GULC. Plus another 50k between personal savings and a 509 college fund. The COA numbers mentioned above would be federal loans at time of repayment.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

I'm from suburbs outside of NYC. Ideally I would work in NYC, but I would be open to other east coast cities. I used to work in the Philly area, so maybe I could use that as ties for Philly/Delaware. Not sure though. I have some family in SF and Southern Cal, but those are tough markets to break into anyway.

-Your general career goals

Large firm and then in house. Interested in mostly corporate areas of law. Also interested in tax (I think).

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers

168, 3.1 took in Fall 2017.

-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Twice. First time was a 163. I took around 40 PT's over a year and a half and averaged in the 168-170 range. I am not planning to retake, as I don't know if I could do much better.

-How you're currently employed and whether you'll be giving up a salary/other opportunity cost

Just got promoted at a mid-size professional services and consulting firm. Work with implementing hr systems for clients. Base is 65k and bonus around 5k as of now. Two years out of college so I might be able to switch companies soon and get a bump in comp. Don't really love what I do but company is pretty flexible and job is stable. It is very niche though which I see as a con.


Ultimately, just looking for some opinions. I am leaning towards 200+ is too much for GULC. I didn't really love the idea of paying ~130 for Fordham last year either though and that seems like my other option for NYC goals. As good as the numbers are for their employment this year, I am skeptical with a recession on the horizon. Not that GULC is recession proof either. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:23 am

I think you're right about the price being too high for Georgetown. Your GPA isn't so terrible as to preclude very many schools if your LSAT were a bit higher, so I would definitely at least put some thought into a retake. The recent promotion is a good excuse to pull out of your ED commitment without burning any bridges. With a year or two more experience, and perhaps an increase in LSAT (think 170+), you might open some options above GULC, and get significantly better scholarships out of GULC and its peers.

I would definitely reapply, and put some serious thought into a retake. On your reapplication, I would target BU, BC, Notre Dame, Fordham, and the schools ranked 4-19 (7-19 if you don't retake). That should give you a good spread of options.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:50 pm

Yeah don't spend that much. It's too much debt. At the very least you should try to get GULC next cycle without the ED strings attached and be able to have other options for comparison and negotiation.

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ThaBlackLord
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by ThaBlackLord » Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 pm

Hey guys, do you happen to know which T14 has the lowest COL?

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Wed May 08, 2019 12:32 am

ThaBlackLord wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 pm
Hey guys, do you happen to know which T14 has the lowest COL?
No but you could try looking at Law School Transparency, or just looking up the living cost formulas on each school's financial aid page. Shouldn't take you more than 30 minutes.

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law
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by law » Wed May 08, 2019 10:10 am

ThaBlackLord wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 pm
Hey guys, do you happen to know which T14 has the lowest COL?
Michigan

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ThaBlackLord
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by ThaBlackLord » Wed May 08, 2019 7:46 pm

law wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:10 am
ThaBlackLord wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 pm
Hey guys, do you happen to know which T14 has the lowest COL?
Michigan
Thanks mate appreciate it!

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Stranger
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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Fri May 10, 2019 9:09 am

ThaBlackLord wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:46 pm
law wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:10 am
ThaBlackLord wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 pm
Hey guys, do you happen to know which T14 has the lowest COL?
Michigan
Thanks mate appreciate it!
But also be aware that this is not the same as the answer to "Which t13 has the lowest Cost of Attendance?" For that, the answer is, surprisingly, Berkeley. It's cheaper to attend Berkeley out of state than Michigan or Virginia in-state. Of course, you should realistically have a scholarship to factor in, but those are the breakdowns at sticker.

Edit to add: Also, LST gives a lower COL number for UVA than it does for Michigan, but it's less than $1000/year difference.

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