THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
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THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:24 pm

In another life, I spent countless hours trying to help 0Ls working their way through the law school decision process. It was mostly rewarding, at times frustrating, but always worth my time (I hope). Instead of flooding the forum with thread after thread trying to decide what school you can get into, which school you should pick, or whether law school is the right move for you, LSL needs a single place to seek advice, discourse, and an experienced sounding board of members willing to help others in starting a legal career off on the right foot. Come here and find the help you need in figuring out your particular admissions decision process, and let the more experienced members of this community help out in any small way they can.

What this thread will mostly not be:
1. LSAT study tips. There will be posters much better and more current in the best study methods for the LSAT. I'm happy to help minimally where I can, but that's really not what this is about.
2. An echo chamber where all you can expect to hear is to retake for X tier of school. The entire point of picking the right school for you necessarily must be based on what your goals are, and oftentimes that means something other than T13 or bust. It might mean T13 is what you'll need, but that will be more specific to your particular goals, and I swear to you everything in your situation will be considered before advice is given.
3. A place to find blind reassurance that you've made the best choices. This is not the place for confirmation bias to cloud judgment. If your plans seem well thought-out and your options maximized, I'm of course happy to tell you that. But if I see holes in your plan, I will poke at them (nicely as best I can).

Welcome to the LSL Admissions Ashram, intrepid, wayward souls. Come for the collective wisdom in these virtual walls, and stay to help build a productive and evolving community. This should be a place where advice is offered, disagreements are had respectfully, and the discourse is entirely because we collectively care about helping one another. I have no power to moderate the content here (ETA: Ok, at the time I wrote this, I didn't expect to be a moderator of these boards, but it doesn't change the underlying sentiment), but I promise you I will exercise what little power I have to make this a respectful place for every member seeking advice and a sounding board.

Before we consider anything else, the following links should be helpful, and in some cases could even be considered mandatory reading before moving ahead in your decision-making process.

Useful Links
http://www.lstreports.com
http://mylsn.info
http://www.chambersandpartners.com
https://www.nalp.org/class_of_2014_salary_curve

Further, from a previous life, here are a few helpful questions you should be considering in picking a law school, and the more you can provide from these questions, the more helpful this place can be:
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
-How you're currently employed and whether you'll be giving up a salary/other opportunity cost
If you have general application questions, you can absolutely ask them here as well, but these questions are probably better pushed to our resident expert and admissions counselor Mike Spivey and crew (thread here: http://www.lawschool.life/forums/viewto ... 7cb03c56aa). If you want specific advice based on your specific options and your specific career goals, they belong here. We have a wealth of members across law schools, practice areas, and relevant experience before, during, and after law school.

No question here will be ignored, and no question will be unnecessarily belittled, but any question may be met with skeptical questions seeking more information, because it’s possible you’re leaving out vital details or just haven’t thought of things that should be foremost in your particular situation.

Bring LSL and this sacred ashram your every question, dear friends, and hopefully we can help you figure out your particular problem, from deciding to apply to law school, where you should apply based on your career goals, maximizing your options and minimizing your costs to achieve your goals, and figuring out negotiation strategies before ultimately picking the best school FOR YOU!

What say you, LSL members? What decisions do YOU need help making?
Last edited by UVA2B on Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Rowdy » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Bookmarking this for when I inevitably need the Judgment of Solomon UVA2B

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Lankhs » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm

I understand that a lot of heat comes for people who haven't fully thought out their entire legal career, and understandably so -- the market and the $$$ that goes into it makes it so that you should know what you're doing every step of the way. But I'm not sure -- I'd like to keep my options open. There are a few wild thoughts in my head (I want to become a lawyer for NASA) but I don't really have any idea of what goes into that. So basically -- I know I don't want to do NYC biglaw more than I have to, or at all, if it were possible. Is law school a good place to find out what kind of law to do, or is everyone going in with a set goal in mind? Feel like I'm the only one who hasn't decided on these law forums tbh.

A second question to follow that up is if I go into law school without fully knowing what I want to do with the degree, is it best to go to the highest ranked school or the school with the most $$?

Pretty broad questions here and I apologize for that, but I'm struggling to find the right words for it all. Background is K-JD, 172, 4.1+ LSAC gpa. Applying in 2018-19 cycle but took LSAT early.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Finn » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:07 pm

Lankhs wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm
I want to become a lawyer for NASA
You're literally shooting for the moon.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Lankhs » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:11 pm

Finn wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:07 pm
Lankhs wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm
I want to become a lawyer for NASA
You're literally shooting for the moon.
Image

Hopefully I'm shooting for Mars if Musk gets goin'.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by DistantMirror » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:06 pm

Reposting from the post I made. I didn't see this thread!

So, I'm 32 years old. I decided to take my GED instead of finishing my senior year of high school, because I was an idiot, and consequently went to community college. I proceeded to be an even bigger idiot. I spent SEVERAL years getting decent grades in classes I liked but then either failing or withdrawing from all of the others. I tried going back a couple of times and the same thing happened. I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't really care about my future that much.

Okay, so, I realized this last summer that what I actually wanted to do was be a lawyer. A public defender, specifically, and if not a public defender then I would love to be otherwise involved in public interest law. http://www.pisgahlegal.org/ is a local nonprofit that I have such immense respect for.

This last fall I went back to school and got all As, now that I actually have an idea of what I'm doing. This semester is young, but so far so good. My goal is another 4.0 semester. I finish my AA this Spring and should be attending one of the UNC system schools this fall. (Leaning towards a Statistics degree. My nightmare is ending up with an unemployable bachelors and then not getting into law school.) I intend to do whatever amount of studying is necessary to excel in my last five semesters of undergrad. I'm confident I can bring my GPA up to a 3.3. I know the LSAT is going to be critical to my chances of getting into law school, and I really want to aim for a high score on it. The kind of score that will make schools give me a shot.

So, my question is, considering all this, would I have an actual shot at a career as a public defender? I realize it's very competitive. Would I have a shot at getting into a good regional school with decent financial assistance? I really don't want to take on over $100,000 of debt, I realize the career I'm interested in is on the modest end of the legal pay scale. Would that be enough to have a chance at a real career?

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:50 pm

Lankhs wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm
I understand that a lot of heat comes for people who haven't fully thought out their entire legal career, and understandably so -- the market and the $$$ that goes into it makes it so that you should know what you're doing every step of the way. But I'm not sure -- I'd like to keep my options open. There are a few wild thoughts in my head (I want to become a lawyer for NASA) but I don't really have any idea of what goes into that. So basically -- I know I don't want to do NYC biglaw more than I have to, or at all, if it were possible. Is law school a good place to find out what kind of law to do, or is everyone going in with a set goal in mind? Feel like I'm the only one who hasn't decided on these law forums tbh.

A second question to follow that up is if I go into law school without fully knowing what I want to do with the degree, is it best to go to the highest ranked school or the school with the most $$?

Pretty broad questions here and I apologize for that, but I'm struggling to find the right words for it all. Background is K-JD, 172, 4.1+ LSAC gpa. Applying in 2018-19 cycle but took LSAT early.
Broad questions aren't a problem at all, so don't worry!

It's obviously ideal you at least have an idea where you want your career to start, but beyond that shouldn't really be in your head right now, and really this career will end up being what opportunities come up as much as it is planning for one particular ultimate career outcome, at least for most.

Now, please take comfort that you're not alone in not knowing what you want to do heading into law school. In fact, the minority of students have real concrete ideas of what they want entering law school, and even those that do have an idea can sometimes be subject to change. So don't worry at all that you haven't defined an entire career path. That said, you should be thinking along general career lines where you want it to start (Biglaw, small law, federal or state government, PI, etc.) now, because the more clear an idea you have going in, the more you can tailor your actual law school experience to figuring out exactly where you want your career to start (I can't stress enough that you won't leave law school knowing any more than where you want your career to start, not where it will ultimately go).

Prestige vs. cost: this debate happens a ton, and honestly it's entirely personal to you in some sense. How are you planning to pay for law school? Where do you want to practice geographically? Do you imagine developing a desire for highly specialized fields that have extremely limited straight out of law school hiring (since you seem pretty unsure to this point, I'll assume you're not looking at these types of careers, but in case you develop an interest in a highly specialized field). And it's also important to consider how risk averse you are, both financially and professionally. Considering your current number profile, you're likely going to have some great options within the T13, and with that being the case, I usually tend to recommend taking the cheapest option out of the T13, because most any career field is attainable from any T13 (although it gets marginally easier as you climb up the USNWR rankings). And if you have pretty generic career goals like Biglaw generally, it's absolutely better in my opinion to save money in the T13 because the top of the rankings only place a marginally higher percentage of graduates in those jobs, and for the median graduate at pretty much any of these schools, the firms you'll go to will be more or less the same. The higher ranked schools place more graduates in a few higher ranked firms, and firms will reach a little deeper in the class at Columbia than they will at Cornell (for instance), but in terms of the experience you can get and the careers you can have following your first job in Biglaw, there isn't a hugely meaningful difference. There may even be a small difference, but it's debatable to quantify that amount in the tens of thousands of dollars for your degree. Functionally, Biglaw is Biglaw, and Biglaw exit options won't drastically change within practice areas. So in that sense, you're paying extra money for Columbia vs. Cornell to have more room for error in getting the outcome you want and having worse grades in that law school. You can't exactly predict where you'll place at either, so Columbia is worth more than Cornell, but it's up to you to figure out how much that extra wiggle room is worth.

One final point: considering you're K-JD, and considering you haven't figured out much in the type of career you want outside maybe working for NASA one day (which probably sounds cooler than it actually is, FWIW), why not take a year or two between UG and law school? Nothing is compelling you to do it, and you'll have good options professionally and financially as it is, but there are great opportunities to live life for a bit on your own before coming back to law school. I changed so much as an adult in the first two years following graduation, and I think that is pretty typical. It's just something worth chewing on.

You'll have good options when the time comes, so for now you should really be researching the types of jobs and practice areas that interest you as well as targeting the geographic markets that interest you where you could start your career.

If you have any follow-up questions, feel free to ask! I (and hopefully others soon!) are always here to help!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:00 pm

DistantMirror wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:06 pm
Reposting from the post I made. I didn't see this thread!

So, I'm 32 years old. I decided to take my GED instead of finishing my senior year of high school, because I was an idiot, and consequently went to community college. I proceeded to be an even bigger idiot. I spent SEVERAL years getting decent grades in classes I liked but then either failing or withdrawing from all of the others. I tried going back a couple of times and the same thing happened. I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't really care about my future that much.

Okay, so, I realized this last summer that what I actually wanted to do was be a lawyer. A public defender, specifically, and if not a public defender then I would love to be otherwise involved in public interest law. http://www.pisgahlegal.org/ is a local nonprofit that I have such immense respect for.

This last fall I went back to school and got all As, now that I actually have an idea of what I'm doing. This semester is young, but so far so good. My goal is another 4.0 semester. I finish my AA this Spring and should be attending one of the UNC system schools this fall. (Leaning towards a Statistics degree. My nightmare is ending up with an unemployable bachelors and then not getting into law school.) I intend to do whatever amount of studying is necessary to excel in my last five semesters of undergrad. I'm confident I can bring my GPA up to a 3.3. I know the LSAT is going to be critical to my chances of getting into law school, and I really want to aim for a high score on it. The kind of score that will make schools give me a shot.

So, my question is, considering all this, would I have an actual shot at a career as a public defender? I realize it's very competitive. Would I have a shot at getting into a good regional school with decent financial assistance? I really don't want to take on over $100,000 of debt, I realize the career I'm interested in is on the modest end of the legal pay scale. Would that be enough to have a chance at a real career?
Welcome to LSL! I'll try to go more in-depth, but first thing up front: you can absolutely get into a law school (once you get an LSAT), and you'll have good options in becoming a public defender if you do well enough on the LSAT. Considering the link above, are you planning on practicing in Western North Carolina? Your geographic focus is going to be critical for your law school search, because getting a job as a public defender is all about getting experience in law school in the offices where you want to eventually get a job. So that means going to law school in North Carolina, and ideally in the western part of the state (again, if it's your plan to be a public defender in Western NC). You'll want every opportunity to intern, extern, and do pro bono work at your local PD offices, so when you finally pass the bar after graduation, they'll want to hire you ahead of any of your peers or other applicants because they know you, they know your work, and they know you're committed to what they do. This is obviously not guaranteed to work, as nothing in life really is, but PD hiring generally revolves around finding people committed to the work, willing to do the work for the kind of pay available to PDs, and familiar to those making hiring decisions. Your best way to do that is to work for them pro bono as often as you possibly can.

Now, as previously mentioned, you'll want to limit costs, which means you'll want to nail down a really strong LSAT. Look at the schools you'd want to attend in NC, and aim for at least their 75th percentile LSAT. You should obviously study for and push for a 180, but there are diminishing returns once you get above a school's 75th percentile LSAT.

Final note: as you look into this career more, and specifically PD work, don't let the prestige drive get to you. Don't worry about getting into a T13, or going to UNC at full price vs. Wake Forest for free (not saying this decision will arise, just making up possible outcomes you might have to face). Your approach to law school should be cost minimization in your desired geographic region.

Now get to work on that LSAT, and keep up those good grades! You'll want as high a GPA as possible, because having both metrics strong will help in getting more in terms of tuition discounts. Good luck!

Edit: just saw your other thread about the Withdrawals. You absolutely need to figure out how your school handles them and try to get them non-punitive. If they don't count against your GPA would be a huge help, and all that would be left is a compelling addendum to explain the W's. This will be huge in figuring out your scholarship possibilities.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by DistantMirror » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 pm

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply! After checking the LSAC website, I believe my Ws are non-punitive. I think I'm in the clear.

I hadn't decided on where I'd want to practice yet. I currently live in WNC, but my wife and I had talked about moving back to Pennsylvania, where she's from, or New England, where I lived a few years back. If I decide to try this, I'd be willing to consider almost any region of the country, honestly. There are no law schools in the western part of NC, so if we did stay here I'd need to get into someplace like UNC or Wake Forest. I'm sure Duke is out of the question. I'm not positive the first two would take me, either. I'm trying like hell to get into UNC for the fall, but that won't help with law school. (I assume.)

If I wanted to try to become a public defender in a given region, it wouldn't be a waste of time if I could only go to someplace way down the rankings? Your Villanovas and your Penn States, for instance. Because my personal preference would absolutely be someplace that wanted to provide substantial assistance to me.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:22 pm

DistantMirror wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 pm
Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply! After checking the LSAC website, I believe my Ws are non-punitive. I think I'm in the clear.

I hadn't decided on where I'd want to practice yet. I currently live in WNC, but my wife and I had talked about moving back to Pennsylvania, where she's from, or New England, where I lived a few years back. If I decide to try this, I'd be willing to consider almost any region of the country, honestly. There are no law schools in the western part of NC, so if we did stay here I'd need to get into someplace like UNC or Wake Forest. I'm sure Duke is out of the question. I'm not positive the first two would take me, either. I'm trying like hell to get into UNC for the fall, but that won't help with law school. (I assume.)

If I wanted to try to become a public defender in a given region, it wouldn't be a waste of time if I could only go to someplace way down the rankings? Your Villanovas and your Penn States, for instance. Because my personal preference would absolutely be someplace that wanted to provide substantial assistance to me.
Not at all! Going to Villanova to practice in Eastern PA as a PD, so long as its cheap, is a great outcome. In fact, arguably going to Villanova is as good as going to Penn (I won't go quite that far because the Penn grad who wants to be a PD through and through would probably still get a bump for its known pedigree if they demonstrate similar interest. And they'll have LRAP to back them up, which is a nice leg up in covering the finances of law school when you're going into lower paid work like being a PD).

If you want to practice in PA, Villanova or PSU-Dickinson for free is a good option for becoming a PD. Like I said, chasing pedigree to become a PD is likely a waste of time and money (or at least a necessary reliance on PSLF existing well into the future and being covered by it).

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Lankhs » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:36 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:50 pm
Lankhs wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm
I understand that a lot of heat comes for people who haven't fully thought out their entire legal career, and understandably so -- the market and the $$$ that goes into it makes it so that you should know what you're doing every step of the way. But I'm not sure -- I'd like to keep my options open. There are a few wild thoughts in my head (I want to become a lawyer for NASA) but I don't really have any idea of what goes into that. So basically -- I know I don't want to do NYC biglaw more than I have to, or at all, if it were possible. Is law school a good place to find out what kind of law to do, or is everyone going in with a set goal in mind? Feel like I'm the only one who hasn't decided on these law forums tbh.

A second question to follow that up is if I go into law school without fully knowing what I want to do with the degree, is it best to go to the highest ranked school or the school with the most $$?

Pretty broad questions here and I apologize for that, but I'm struggling to find the right words for it all. Background is K-JD, 172, 4.1+ LSAC gpa. Applying in 2018-19 cycle but took LSAT early.
Broad questions aren't a problem at all, so don't worry!

It's obviously ideal you at least have an idea where you want your career to start, but beyond that shouldn't really be in your head right now, and really this career will end up being what opportunities come up as much as it is planning for one particular ultimate career outcome, at least for most.

.......
Thanks so much for the incredibly thorough response, I really appreciate it! I'll definitely be taking everything you said into consideration and will at least start considering what I want to do after law school, though maybe not for the rest of my life. In regards to your last point about taking a year off between LS and undergrad, I have put some thought into it -- main reason I'm against it is because with the way the law school admissions landscape is changing, I have no idea how valuable an LSAT will be in a year or two, and it seems like there is going to be a dramatic increase in applicants over the next few years which will likely make the application pool a lot more competitive. Honestly, that's a lot of speculation on my part but that, in addition to a few personal reasons contribute to me applying out of undergrad. Thanks again for the well-written post, it assuaged a lot of my fears and gave me to a lot to think about.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Ark » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:42 pm

Copying this post over from a thread I created earlier...

Hey all,

I'm currently serving on active duty with a little less than 7 months until I separate. I'll be looking to apply for the Fall 2019 cycle so I have a little bit of time to work with. I'm aiming for an LSAT date of either July, September, or November depending on how ready I feel.

A little about myself
-I'll be 27 years old at time of application
-I'll be 5 years removed from uGPA 2.9 (Class of 2014)
-G.I. Bill so not too worried about scholarship money
-4 years of active duty service - 1 deployment to Afghanistan
-Married (don't know how admissions views this)
-Non-URM
-1st gen college student/graduate

I already know GPA is going to hinder me. I worked 2 jobs for a combined 40+ hours most weeks while in college, but I don't think that's good enough material for a GPA addendum, what do y'all think?

My top 3 schools in order are: Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, and Alabama. Is this too ambitious given my uGPA? What LSAT score would give me a realistic shot at these schools?

I've been doing the free trial on 7Sage in addition to watching their logic games videos, thinking about purchasing one of their study packages. I've also heard good things about the LSAT Trainer as well as the PowerScore bibles. I know studying is going to be mostly personal preference, but does there seem to be one or two companies that provide material that is widely regarded as better/the best?

Thanks!

*Also, I'd like to add that my wife has a full time salaried job in Western Tennessee and would not be accompanying me if I were to attend school outside that area, thus Vanderbilt and Alabama as two of my top 3 choices (both within 3 hours). Due to this I have relatively little interest in t14 schools (not that I have a chance at getting in) and I would also be looking to return to Western Tennessee to practice law after graduation.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:16 pm

Ark wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:42 pm
Copying this post over from a thread I created earlier...

Hey all,

I'm currently serving on active duty with a little less than 7 months until I separate. I'll be looking to apply for the Fall 2019 cycle so I have a little bit of time to work with. I'm aiming for an LSAT date of either July, September, or November depending on how ready I feel.

A little about myself
-I'll be 27 years old at time of application
-I'll be 5 years removed from uGPA 2.9 (Class of 2014)
-G.I. Bill so not too worried about scholarship money
-4 years of active duty service - 1 deployment to Afghanistan
-Married (don't know how admissions views this)
-Non-URM
-1st gen college student/graduate

I already know GPA is going to hinder me. I worked 2 jobs for a combined 40+ hours most weeks while in college, but I don't think that's good enough material for a GPA addendum, what do y'all think?

My top 3 schools in order are: Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, and Alabama. Is this too ambitious given my uGPA? What LSAT score would give me a realistic shot at these schools?

I've been doing the free trial on 7Sage in addition to watching their logic games videos, thinking about purchasing one of their study packages. I've also heard good things about the LSAT Trainer as well as the PowerScore bibles. I know studying is going to be mostly personal preference, but does there seem to be one or two companies that provide material that is widely regarded as better/the best?

Thanks!

*Also, I'd like to add that my wife has a full time salaried job in Western Tennessee and would not be accompanying me if I were to attend school outside that area, thus Vanderbilt and Alabama as two of my top 3 choices (both within 3 hours). Due to this I have relatively little interest in t14 schools (not that I have a chance at getting in) and I would also be looking to return to Western Tennessee to practice law after graduation.
Sorry I haven't responded sooner! Typically answering these types of questions requires more time and attention, so I can't just fire off a quick response.

I'll try to hit each of your questions first, then offer a bit of overarching advice given your situation.

Your reasons for an addendum probably aren't compelling enough to warrant an addendum. Addenda are typically reserved for outlying reasons for subpar performance, not just general life and time crunch. It's completely understandable that your performance suffered due to working while in school, but a lot of people do that, and you don't need to explain that to admissions people. It won't *hurt* you if you decide to write one, but if you do, it needs to be quick, concise, and straight to the facts. You're not looking for sympathy in an addendum; you're only looking to explain something that otherwise doesn't make sense in your record. That's why I wouldn't personally include it.

Your options are not at all too ambitious, given your desired market and geographic limitations. I might also include UGA, UNC, Duke, and UVA, depending on how well you perform on the LSAT (maybe UTK as well just so you have options that can hypothetically place you in Western TN). Because your GPA is on the low side, you should be shooting for 170+, with the obvious caveat that anyone taking the LSAT should shoot for 180. If you can nail a 170+, it's possible you could be going to UVA or Duke for free, which is an awesome outcome, and even if you missed out on those, it's very realistic you could get in to Alabama or Vandy (ND makes less sense to me, because that's pretty far geographically from Western TN. Can you explain why you're including ND in your choices?), which could all give you a shot at employment in Western TN.

For the LSAT study companies, I hesitate to give any substantial advice because it's been a long time since I've studied for the LSAT. I've heard that 7Sage is really good for LG practice, and you can also use the Powerscore bibles for some of the other sections, and then it's all about drilling sections, taking PTs, and making sure you use effective blind review on the various sections. Beyond that, you'll want to use the LSAT study forum for more current, and frankly better, advice.

Finally, always remember that while your GPA is low, and you don't have the traditional barriers to making the best law school choice because you have GI Bill to pay for any law school, you'll still want to keep your goals for post-grad employment in mind, because the amount of reach Alabama will have into Western TN will be limited and will involve a substantial amount of hustle, depending on what type of career you're looking for in that region. There aren't huge legal markets in that area, so you'll be pretty limited in the types of legal jobs available there, especially for a new graduate. By confining your legal job search that narrowly, you're giving yourself some unfortunate barriers to ultimate employment, because there just aren't that many jobs available there. Depending on what type of job interests you should help drive your ultimate law school decision. If you exclusively want a high-paying job at a private firm in Memphis, that should worry you going to somewhere other than Vandy or a T14, because there just aren't many summer associate jobs (that would lead to ultimate employment) in that market. But if what you define as a good job coming out of school includes other things like local and state government or smaller private firms, then you can expand your search a bit more (but again, going to UTK or Vandy will be much better for these types of jobs compared to going to Bama or UNC or ND).

Anyway, I hope some of this is at least food for thought, and I'm happy to expand on anything I've said if it's confusing, or if it doesn't make sense to you.

Good luck studying for the LSAT, and good luck with your transition from active duty!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Stranger » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:52 pm

To add to what UVA said about LSAT study, the Manhattan RC guide came highly recommended to me, and I was satisfied that it shored up that section for me. My test date included a particularly nasty RC section, and the methods I learned from that guide left me prepared such that RC didn't hurt my score.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Ark » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:06 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:16 pm
Ark wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:42 pm
Copying this post over from a thread I created earlier...

Hey all,

I'm currently serving on active duty with a little less than 7 months until I separate. I'll be looking to apply for the Fall 2019 cycle so I have a little bit of time to work with. I'm aiming for an LSAT date of either July, September, or November depending on how ready I feel.

A little about myself
-I'll be 27 years old at time of application
-I'll be 5 years removed from uGPA 2.9 (Class of 2014)
-G.I. Bill so not too worried about scholarship money
-4 years of active duty service - 1 deployment to Afghanistan
-Married (don't know how admissions views this)
-Non-URM
-1st gen college student/graduate

I already know GPA is going to hinder me. I worked 2 jobs for a combined 40+ hours most weeks while in college, but I don't think that's good enough material for a GPA addendum, what do y'all think?

My top 3 schools in order are: Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, and Alabama. Is this too ambitious given my uGPA? What LSAT score would give me a realistic shot at these schools?

I've been doing the free trial on 7Sage in addition to watching their logic games videos, thinking about purchasing one of their study packages. I've also heard good things about the LSAT Trainer as well as the PowerScore bibles. I know studying is going to be mostly personal preference, but does there seem to be one or two companies that provide material that is widely regarded as better/the best?

Thanks!

*Also, I'd like to add that my wife has a full time salaried job in Western Tennessee and would not be accompanying me if I were to attend school outside that area, thus Vanderbilt and Alabama as two of my top 3 choices (both within 3 hours). Due to this I have relatively little interest in t14 schools (not that I have a chance at getting in) and I would also be looking to return to Western Tennessee to practice law after graduation.
Sorry I haven't responded sooner! Typically answering these types of questions requires more time and attention, so I can't just fire off a quick response.

I'll try to hit each of your questions first, then offer a bit of overarching advice given your situation.

Your reasons for an addendum probably aren't compelling enough to warrant an addendum. Addenda are typically reserved for outlying reasons for subpar performance, not just general life and time crunch. It's completely understandable that your performance suffered due to working while in school, but a lot of people do that, and you don't need to explain that to admissions people. It won't *hurt* you if you decide to write one, but if you do, it needs to be quick, concise, and straight to the facts. You're not looking for sympathy in an addendum; you're only looking to explain something that otherwise doesn't make sense in your record. That's why I wouldn't personally include it.

Your options are not at all too ambitious, given your desired market and geographic limitations. I might also include UGA, UNC, Duke, and UVA, depending on how well you perform on the LSAT (maybe UTK as well just so you have options that can hypothetically place you in Western TN). Because your GPA is on the low side, you should be shooting for 170+, with the obvious caveat that anyone taking the LSAT should shoot for 180. If you can nail a 170+, it's possible you could be going to UVA or Duke for free, which is an awesome outcome, and even if you missed out on those, it's very realistic you could get in to Alabama or Vandy (ND makes less sense to me, because that's pretty far geographically from Western TN. Can you explain why you're including ND in your choices?), which could all give you a shot at employment in Western TN.

For the LSAT study companies, I hesitate to give any substantial advice because it's been a long time since I've studied for the LSAT. I've heard that 7Sage is really good for LG practice, and you can also use the Powerscore bibles for some of the other sections, and then it's all about drilling sections, taking PTs, and making sure you use effective blind review on the various sections. Beyond that, you'll want to use the LSAT study forum for more current, and frankly better, advice.

Finally, always remember that while your GPA is low, and you don't have the traditional barriers to making the best law school choice because you have GI Bill to pay for any law school, you'll still want to keep your goals for post-grad employment in mind, because the amount of reach Alabama will have into Western TN will be limited and will involve a substantial amount of hustle, depending on what type of career you're looking for in that region. There aren't huge legal markets in that area, so you'll be pretty limited in the types of legal jobs available there, especially for a new graduate. By confining your legal job search that narrowly, you're giving yourself some unfortunate barriers to ultimate employment, because there just aren't that many jobs available there. Depending on what type of job interests you should help drive your ultimate law school decision. If you exclusively want a high-paying job at a private firm in Memphis, that should worry you going to somewhere other than Vandy or a T14, because there just aren't many summer associate jobs (that would lead to ultimate employment) in that market. But if what you define as a good job coming out of school includes other things like local and state government or smaller private firms, then you can expand your search a bit more (but again, going to UTK or Vandy will be much better for these types of jobs compared to going to Bama or UNC or ND).

Anyway, I hope some of this is at least food for thought, and I'm happy to expand on anything I've said if it's confusing, or if it doesn't make sense to you.

Good luck studying for the LSAT, and good luck with your transition from active duty!
Thank you for your response.

I'm relatively new to the idea of going to law school, so I guess I hadn't realize how restrictive the job market is when it comes to employment vs. where you go to school. Vanderbilt is definitely my #1 choice and would probably give me the best opportunity to practice in the Memphis area (where my wife works). I have no specific reason for including Notre Dame other than it's a t20 school and one that has always interested me.

I hadn't thought it possible for me to go to UVA or Duke due to GPA alone but I suppose an LSAT in the 170s would significantly improve my chances. I had based my list mainly on geographical proximity to the Memphis area because my wife would not be accompanying me to my school of choice and I'd like to make it as easy as possible for us to see each other with at least a little regularity. I will most likely remove Notre Dame from my list of schools because it is almost 9 hours away. UVA and Duke are both 10+ hours from Memphis, but it would be hard to turn down two t14 schools if I were to gain admittance.

Practicing in W. Tennessee isn't the end all be all for me as I have no ties to the area other than my wife and her family, but I know that's where she wants to stay. However, if I were to land a job elsewhere after graduation making significantly more money than she is, she's not going to say no.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response!

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Nony » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Lankhs wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:04 pm
I understand that a lot of heat comes for people who haven't fully thought out their entire legal career, and understandably so -- the market and the $$$ that goes into it makes it so that you should know what you're doing every step of the way. But I'm not sure -- I'd like to keep my options open. There are a few wild thoughts in my head (I want to become a lawyer for NASA) but I don't really have any idea of what goes into that. So basically -- I know I don't want to do NYC biglaw more than I have to, or at all, if it were possible. Is law school a good place to find out what kind of law to do, or is everyone going in with a set goal in mind? Feel like I'm the only one who hasn't decided on these law forums tbh.

A second question to follow that up is if I go into law school without fully knowing what I want to do with the degree, is it best to go to the highest ranked school or the school with the most $$?

Pretty broad questions here and I apologize for that, but I'm struggling to find the right words for it all. Background is K-JD, 172, 4.1+ LSAC gpa. Applying in 2018-19 cycle but took LSAT early.
There has been a lot of emphasis on a previous unnamed board that people need to know what they want to do when they apply, but I think that's unrealistic. (I say this in part because I ended up doing something I had no intention of doing when I entered law school, and only became really interested in it while clerking after graduation.) Law school classes help, but only somewhat, because studying a subject academically isn't the same as practicing it. (For instance, in theory I was very interested in doing civil rights stuff, and found classes on civil rights stuff really interesting, but discovered (again through clerking) that in practice, unless you are in a higher-prestige impact lit org like the ACLU, a lot of civil rights work shares a lot of similarities with personal injury work and it didn't appeal to me at all.)

I think the important thing is to have a realistic sense of what kinds of options are most likely from different kinds of schools - e.g. if you go to the T14 you should be able to get a biglaw job reasonably easily (and many others), if you go to a strong regional/flagship you should be able to get a job with a local firm or in local government or local PD/ADA, assuming for each of these that you do the things necessary to make you competitive for these jobs (for the former that's get good grades and interview competently, for the latter you would probably have to rely more on networking and experience). You may not know, realistically, which of these things you'd like to do, but at least you will have a sense of what options would commonly be open.

Now you have excellent stats so you are likely to end up at a school that will open lots of doors to all kinds of jobs, so yes, get as much experience as you can in law school to try to figure out what really appeals to you. Talk to whatever attorneys will talk to you about their jobs and what it's like day to day. Do clinics and externships and see what it is you actually like and don't like.

In theory it is a balance between a school that will open doors and not paying a gazillion dollars. But again, you should have very good options. So for something like the T14, personally I would go with the money within that tier - Northwestern for free is, in the grand scheme of things, better than Chicago full price, even though there are some objective measures by which Chicago is better (it's just not $300k better). (Keep in mind though that I am not a T14 grad so this is an outsider's perspective.) Obviously if you're talking less than full at more places it gets more complicated (especially when you throw in HYS and their need-based aid).

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by playmaker093 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:16 am

Decided to post this here for the best recommendations. I acknowledge this is a hypothetical just trying to focus my thoughts.

I received a 168 on September's test and have a 3.94. My cycle has played out like you'd expect. WL at some top schools, accepted to most in the low T14 and right outside. Scholarships over half at most places I've been accepted. I'm taking again in February just to see if I can get any more negotiation power for scholarships. I've taken three recent practice tests after completing the LSAT trainer and have averaged a 176. I'm pretty baffled. I'm sure I'm jinxing myself by asking this and now I will end up getting a 150 on the test in a couple weeks but if something miraculous happened like that should I sit out a cycle? I didn't apply to YHS. Or should I just try and negotiate my scholarships up more and go this cycle? Again, total hypothetical but I'm very anxious on essentially having no idea where I'll be next fall yet.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:23 am

playmaker093 wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:16 am
Decided to post this here for the best recommendations. I acknowledge this is a hypothetical just trying to focus my thoughts.

I received a 168 on September's test and have a 3.94. My cycle has played out like you'd expect. WL at some top schools, accepted to most in the low T14 and right outside. Scholarships over half at most places I've been accepted. I'm taking again in February just to see if I can get any more negotiation power for scholarships. I've taken three recent practice tests after completing the LSAT trainer and have averaged a 176. I'm pretty baffled. I'm sure I'm jinxing myself by asking this and now I will end up getting a 150 on the test in a couple weeks but if something miraculous happened like that should I sit out a cycle? I didn't apply to YHS. Or should I just try and negotiate my scholarships up more and go this cycle? Again, total hypothetical but I'm very anxious on essentially having no idea where I'll be next fall yet.
First off, have some faith that you'll improve! Typically retakes close the gap between PT and the real show because some of the nerves and anxiety surrounding the test dissipates. So even if you only improve to a 173, you'll be in a great spot to potentially negotiate.

As for negotiating with an improved February LSAT, there is mixed success there from what I've seen. It might get you off a WL at a T6, but their scholarships may be spoken for mostly (especially the high yield scholarships like Ruby and Hamilton). And the lower T14 are likely giving you those scholarships because you're in a sweet spot for getting a great GPA with an LSAT right around the median. If you improve your LSAT, they may actually be disincentivized to offer more money in negotiation, because you are now less likely (at least in theory) to attend their school because you might get the aforementioned T6 acceptance. They might up their offer if you handle it right, but again, a lot of scholarship awards are already offered out when February LSATs come out, so you're relying on people turning their scholarship offers down AND admissions deciding to offer you more money vice offering that money to another applicant or WL that will help bolster their metrics. This is all just meant to be fair warning that you may see limited success in negotiating for this cycle.

Now, if you improve your LSAT and don't like your current options, waiting a cycle and reapplying will pay serious dividends if you handle it properly. With a hypothetical 173/3.94 (forgive me for assuming you'll underperform your PT average, but just offering advice based on cautious assumptions), you have full ride potential where you currently have a half ride, and you'll have T6 options on the table that you'll be able to use for negotiations to maximize your leverage. That's a fantastic position to be in, and is likely worth it for you both professionally and financially over going this year. It sounds like you have decent options if you decide to go this year, but $75-90k at Michigan this year is nothing compared to a Darrow or Mordecai next year (completely making up these options, but I hope you catch my drift).

Anyway, good luck on the LSAT and I hope you crush it and if you have other questions, feel free to respond and I'll do my best to help you through this process.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by Paul Campos » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:17 pm

I'd like to suggest an addition to the standard decision template: a question designed to tease out an applicant's opportunity cost. It could be as simple as "what are you currently doing?" or phrased more elaborately. This is a huge factor in any proper cost-benefit analysis.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:18 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:17 pm
I'd like to suggest an addition to the standard decision template: a question designed to tease out an applicant's opportunity cost. It could be as simple as "what are you currently doing?" or phrased more elaborately. This is a huge factor in any proper cost-benefit analysis.
Thanks Professor Campos! I’ll add when I get a moment to edit, that’s a good suggestion.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by MKC » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:45 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:17 pm
I'd like to suggest an addition to the standard decision template: a question designed to tease out an applicant's opportunity cost. It could be as simple as "what are you currently doing?" or phrased more elaborately. This is a huge factor in any proper cost-benefit analysis.
Welcome!

Glad we're pulling the TLS celebrities over here.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by legallybrunette » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 pm

This is a general technical question, but is it possible for this thread to somehow show up as a sticky both here AND "Choosing A Law School" ? I feel like this would be useful to people browsing both this space and that one, and I've already seen some posts there asking for advice on which school to choose.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:39 pm

legallybrunette wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 pm
This is a general technical question, but is it possible for this thread to somehow show up as a sticky both here AND "Choosing A Law School" ? I feel like this would be useful to people browsing both this space and that one, and I've already seen some posts there asking for advice on which school to choose.
I can create a second stickied post if necessary, but regardless I’ll probably be annoyingly present in the choosing forum trying to help people out in whatever way I can. And there won’t be any shortage of other, wiser voices who weigh in as well.

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by klick » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:02 am

Hey,

Just wanted some of your input on the decision before me. Also, curious if this thread allows community answers or just yours; if only yours, is there another place I can post this as well?

I am one year removed from undergrad with work experience in venture capital and law. According to LSAC, I have a 3.06 GPA for my undergraduate time at a top 40 school where I graduated with a BA in Math, BS in Bus. Admin (Finance), and a minor in CompE. In my opinion, I've got pretty compelling softs, quality work experience, and a pretty well-defined long term goal that lies in the intersection of law, VC, and tech, though I plan to clerk for a close family friend for a year after law school. Oh yeah and I am a Non-URM Immigrant and first generation college student, if that even matters.

I hired an admissions consultant for this cycle, and I am not sure how I feel about the progress we made; for one, I wanted to apply by November but we only just finished our apps. Secondly, I feel like my writing has actually been dulled down, though the consultant has helped with the optional essays. I also feel I can do better on the LSAT, so I am retaking it in February.

So far, we have applied basically to the Top 4-20 schools. I have interviewed with UChicago, Cornell, Wash U, and Northwestern. The Wash U and NU interviews went particularly well; I received almost a full ride from the former, and while I haven't received a decision from the latter, I am still receiving emails from my interviewer with admissions advice (though I don't expect to get in).

EDIT: I just noticed the opportunity cost bit. Well, if I didn't go to law school in 2018 I would probably go back into finance for a year. I might choose to continue in VC or move to a more traditional analyst position.

My questions are:

Do you think I should consider waiting this cycle out and applying next cycle? I think my abysmal uGPA will really hinder me from T13 anyhow.

Is transferring a good option?

Will there really be a huge difference in my education and career prospects between a T20 and the T13, especially if I am almost guaranteed a federal clerkship?

Last question (kind of weird and I don't mind if you don't answer):
In general, what is the best way to leverage political connections in the field of law? For example, do they help in the admittance process or just the job-seeking process?

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Re: THE Sacred LSL Admissions Decision Ashram

Post by UVA2B » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:26 am

klick wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:02 am
Hey,

Just wanted some of your input on the decision before me. Also, curious if this thread allows community answers or just yours; if only yours, is there another place I can post this as well?

I am one year removed from undergrad with work experience in venture capital and law. According to LSAC, I have a 3.06 GPA for my undergraduate time at a top 40 school where I graduated with a BA in Math, BS in Bus. Admin (Finance), and a minor in CompE. In my opinion, I've got pretty compelling softs, quality work experience, and a pretty well-defined long term goal that lies in the intersection of law, VC, and tech, though I plan to clerk for a close family friend for a year after law school. Oh yeah and I am a Non-URM Immigrant and first generation college student, if that even matters.

I hired an admissions consultant for this cycle, and I am not sure how I feel about the progress we made; for one, I wanted to apply by November but we only just finished our apps. Secondly, I feel like my writing has actually been dulled down, though the consultant has helped with the optional essays. I also feel I can do better on the LSAT, so I am retaking it in February.

So far, we have applied basically to the Top 4-20 schools. I have interviewed with UChicago, Cornell, Wash U, and Northwestern. The Wash U and NU interviews went particularly well; I received almost a full ride from the former, and while I haven't received a decision from the latter, I am still receiving emails from my interviewer with admissions advice (though I don't expect to get in).

EDIT: I just noticed the opportunity cost bit. Well, if I didn't go to law school in 2018 I would probably go back into finance for a year. I might choose to continue in VC or move to a more traditional analyst position.

My questions are:

Do you think I should consider waiting this cycle out and applying next cycle? I think my abysmal uGPA will really hinder me from T13 anyhow.

Is transferring a good option?

Will there really be a huge difference in my education and career prospects between a T20 and the T13, especially if I am almost guaranteed a federal clerkship?

Last question (kind of weird and I don't mind if you don't answer):
In general, what is the best way to leverage political connections in the field of law? For example, do they help in the admittance process or just the job-seeking process?
I'll get to all of your questions, but first just wanted to reiterate that anyone can offer their advice and opinion on the questions you ask, and in fact that's the entire point of this thread. My opinion is only one voice, and there are other people who can offer high quality advice to you as well. If you don't get what you're looking for here (unfortunately/fortunately I can't force anyone else to respond), you can bring your questions to your own thread or you can also bring the questions up with our resident admissions consultant and noted All-star Mike Spivey, linked in the OP.

Onto your actual questions:

1. You should definitely consider waiting a cycle if you're unhappy with your admissions results. Getting your applications in by end of January/beginning of February is on the late side, and you could've fallen victim to both a limited number of acceptances available and scholarship funds already spoken for by other, earlier applicants. Some people apply late and get the types of results they were looking for going into the cycle, but it's pretty easily established through mylsn that your options only improve if you apply earlier in the cycle. Considering you're already one year removed, there will be little to no harm in waiting one additional year to start law school (this is coming from someone who was nearly a decade removed from UG when I decided to go to law school, FWIW). Your GPA might not be great, but when you apply late, you're not being compared to all of the people who applied with similar numbers as much as you are being compared against the applicant pool that has already been considered and offered spots. Let's say a school admits 1000 people in a cycle, it's very possible 800, 900, or more have been admitted by this point, and all scholarship offers would be out, more or less, by this point. Even if your numbers don't change, you have an opportunity to make it into the earlier part of that initial wave of acceptances instead of fighting over the scraps of admissions that are left over for late contenders with strong numbers or a particular need for the incoming class the school seems short on (GPA, LSAT, URM, etc.). So it'll only benefit you to wait, even if admissions officers approach next cycle like it's going to be more competitive, which they might since applications in general have increased and may be likely to continue.

2. Transferring can be a good option after you've completed at least one semester of law school, but you shouldn't even contemplate it until you've gotten to a law school, performed well enough to transfer, and have evaluated the financial and professional ramifications of transferring. There are times it makes sense to transfer, but there are zero times it makes sense to think about transferring before you ever start law school. There is an entire discussion here to be had, but it only belongs with people who have actually gone through 1L and are in a position to transfer potentially. So I'll reserve the long answer to this question for if/when that becomes a realistic possibility.

3. Education, no, career prospects, potentially. It's no secret that law school education is almost entirely uniform within this tier of school. The professors will be impressive, will have a firm grasp on the material and their own unique way of teaching it, and the overall academic environment in terms of intelligence, work ethic, and drive to learn the material will be similar enough to be indistinguishable generally.

Career prospects can be different though, depending on what/where you want it. The T13's biggest leg up is in big firm hiring, where the T13 place nationally every year. The "T20," which can be better understood as the strongest regionals outside the T13 place more regionally, although they have some reach beyond their immediate region. So if you're looking to get work at a biglaw firm outside that school's immediate region, you should at least be wary that you may be out of luck if you don't place highly in your class (and in case this enters your mind: you really can't predict this, so please don't assume you'll be top of your class. You might be, but it's also equally/more likely you don't. This gets into the law school curve, which leaves a lot of uncertainty for anyone to predict how they'll perform).

Since we're addressing career prospects, who is this family friend you expect to clerk for following graduation? If you are certain you'll have this as an option, and they are in the federal judiciary, this could slightly change things. Coming out of federal clerkships, depending on the reach and influence of the judge, can be helpful with hiring in big firms generally. I have no idea how certain this opportunity is for you, but if you've been given assurances you can count on for clerking for them, regardless of law school performance, grades, etc., then that's something you can/should take into account. But you should make sure you have the ability to count on that no matter where you go or how you perform in law school.

4. I'm not sure I know what you mean by "political connections." If you mean literally politicians, the only influence they will likely have is as an impressive recommender, which may or may not affect admissions in the T13 or T20. While not completely common, it's not unheard of at all to have high level political influencers try to wield influence in admissions, but the admissions don't generally have to worry whether a Congressman from another state will affect them in any substantial way, so it's really just another impressive recommendation among impressive recommendations.

If, by political connections, you mean people who have influence at the law school you're considering, then it can make a difference. Influential alumni will/can reach out to the law school to notify them of your application and your connection to them, and that's something schools take notice of, both because they like furthering the alumni tradition and because they want to keep that influential alumni happy and giving to the school.

Depending on what type of political connection you're talking about will affect the rest of this discussion though.

I hope this helps with some of your questions, and I hope others choose to weigh in on your questions. Advice is always better when it comes from the community instead of just one poster. Good luck with the rest of your cycle, and I hope you choose to sit out to see the kinds of options you can have early in the cycle!

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