Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

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studyandretake
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by studyandretake » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:19 am

One thing I am very interested in, frankly, is how the push toward more progressive prosecution will affect PI programs. With the new Philly DA being elected explicitly on a reform platform + reform also being a huge part of the Brooklyn DA race, I'm curious when and how alternative sentencing/restorative justice/other approaches will continue to enter the classroom/clinic/framing around prosecution-side PI work. Anybody heard anything about this?

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LoosieGoosie
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by LoosieGoosie » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:36 pm

studyandretake wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:19 am
One thing I am very interested in, frankly, is how the push toward more progressive prosecution will affect PI programs. With the new Philly DA being elected explicitly on a reform platform + reform also being a huge part of the Brooklyn DA race, I'm curious when and how alternative sentencing/restorative justice/other approaches will continue to enter the classroom/clinic/framing around prosecution-side PI work. Anybody heard anything about this?
I'm at UVA and we've definitely started pushing alternative approaches to criminal justice. The prosecution clinic heavily pushes finding options besides jail when dealing with non-violent offenders. I'm also taking a class on therapeutic (drug, DUI, domestic violence) courts and another specifically on the ways we are moving away from traditional approaches to criminal justice. There are similar courses that I'm not taking.

That's all to say that my school is definitely conscious of this issue (although possibly colored by our white supremacist problems). I'd say that the prosecution clinic's approach in particular is that, while jail may be appropriate in certain cases, it should not be the first choice and that you should absolutely consider the significant chance that the person who comes out of jail may be much worse for society than the person who went in.

sandysan
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by sandysan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am

anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?

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Kümmel
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Kümmel » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 am

sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am
anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?

Impact lit is super broad. Interested in prisoners’ rights? There’s a ton of straight out opportunities. Looking to do 1A lit? Not a chance

sandysan
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by sandysan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:32 am

Kümmel wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 am
sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am
anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?

Impact lit is super broad. Interested in prisoners’ rights? There’s a ton of straight out opportunities. Looking to do 1A lit? Not a chance
Sorry but what is 1A lit? Yes definitely interested in prisoners' rights, bail reform, criminal justice reform more broadly, as well as immigrants rights, etc

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UVA2B
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by UVA2B » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:35 am

sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:32 am
Kümmel wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 am
sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am
anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?

Impact lit is super broad. Interested in prisoners’ rights? There’s a ton of straight out opportunities. Looking to do 1A lit? Not a chance
Sorry but what is 1A lit? Yes definitely interested in prisoners' rights, bail reform, criminal justice reform more broadly, as well as immigrants rights, etc
First amendment.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:20 pm

sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am
anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?
It's highly dependent on the type of PI. I practice environmental PI impact lit and came in straight from law school. I used my time in law school wisely and made sure every ounce of effort spent outside the classroom was focused on my goal. Below is a summary.

I interned at the EPA for both summers of law school (one summer in their enforcement office and one summer in the general counsel's office). This provided me with a good overview of environmental law generally.

I did a part time externship at an organization that did non-environmental PI lit, which gave me a good perspective on what PI lit looked like.

I did a full-time externship in an environmental-focused, litigating division within DOJ. This provided a good perspective on environmental litigation.

My path would be similar if you wanted to enter into other types of PI organizations. Environmental and reproductive rights organizations hire entry level and individuals hired usually have a resume similar to mine (just replace the environmental focus with reproductive rights and health law).

sandysan
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by sandysan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:50 am

UVA2B wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:35 am
sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:32 am
Kümmel wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 am
sandysan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:18 am
anyone have experience trying to go straight to PI impact litigation from law school? What would be the best route for someone whose eventual (albeit ideal) goal would be to work for the ACLU?

Impact lit is super broad. Interested in prisoners’ rights? There’s a ton of straight out opportunities. Looking to do 1A lit? Not a chance
Sorry but what is 1A lit? Yes definitely interested in prisoners' rights, bail reform, criminal justice reform more broadly, as well as immigrants rights, etc
First amendment.
maybe i shouldn't go to law school after all

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Littlewing67
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Littlewing67 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:34 pm

I understand that EJW and Skadden fellows are very prestigious and sought out positions. Can someone explain more about the application process for both, what these fellowships entail, and what would be the benefit of obtaining one? (I know the bare minimum about either)

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:34 pm

Littlewing67 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:34 pm
I understand that EJW and Skadden fellows are very prestigious and sought out positions. Can someone explain more about the application process for both, what these fellowships entail, and what would be the benefit of obtaining one? (I know the bare minimum about either)
1. Find organization that will be your sponsor with an emphasis on organizations that do direct services that address vulnerable communities. You will either work as an attorney doing work they already have a need for or you will propose a "project" for the organization that you'll be in charge of implementing. This is the hardest part of the process, because you can't apply without a sponsoring organization.
2. Fill out application.
3. Go through a couple round of interviews.
4. Get accepted or denied.

The fellowships are wherever you found a sponsor. Skadden and EJW just pay you a stipend for working there.

The benefits are: (1) it's a way of getting an entry-level PI job at an organization that otherwise could not afford to hire you themselves; (2) it gets you valuable, hands-on experience; (3) it could turn into a position with the organization after the fellowship ends; (4) it makes you more marketable for similar positions if the organization is not able to hire you; and (5) both Skadden and EJW allow for the possibility of renewal for an additional year.

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Hennessy
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Hennessy » Mon May 14, 2018 12:02 pm

Is landlord-tenant work more commonly seen at private firms or PI orgs.?

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blueapple
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by blueapple » Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Hennessy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:02 pm
Is landlord-tenant work more commonly seen at private firms or PI orgs.?
on the landlord side, private firms. on the tenant side, PI orgs.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Mon May 14, 2018 1:18 pm

blueapple wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 pm
Hennessy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:02 pm
Is landlord-tenant work more commonly seen at private firms or PI orgs.?
on the landlord side, private firms. on the tenant side, PI orgs.
The typical type of PI org that does this is styled as a legal aid organization. Usually the term legal aid is in the name. E.g., Legal Aid Society (NYC), Legal Aid of the District of Columbia, etc.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri May 18, 2018 8:20 am

Now that c/o 2017 numbers are out, I need to update this OP. I'll try to do it this weekend.

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Hennessy
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Hennessy » Fri May 25, 2018 12:50 pm

Nebby wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:18 pm
blueapple wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 pm
Hennessy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:02 pm
Is landlord-tenant work more commonly seen at private firms or PI orgs.?
on the landlord side, private firms. on the tenant side, PI orgs.
The typical type of PI org that does this is styled as a legal aid organization. Usually the term legal aid is in the name. E.g., Legal Aid Society (NYC), Legal Aid of the District of Columbia, etc.
In order to maximize potential for organizations like this, is it important to do 1L/2L-summer internship in the same geographic region as the type of firms you want to get hired at post-grad?

I say this because I sort of know larger cities (e.g. NYC, DC like you mentioned above, or Chi) have a lot more resources for work like this, and I wonder whether pursuing legal aid internships in smaller cities/rural areas is either a. unlikely or b. not conducive to what big metropoli PI organization want to see.

Or am I totally wrong, and you should expect to intern/work summers specifically at an org. you want to be hired by?

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri May 25, 2018 12:59 pm

The hierarchy of needs for 1L/2L summer go:

1. Something legal
2. Something related to the type of work you want to do post-grad
3. The type of work you want to do post-grad
4. The exact organization you want to do post-grad

There's a lot of crossover at a small legal aid and metro legal aid. Some practice areas could even be the same type of work regardless of location.

If metro legal aid is your post grad goal, I would place small or rural legal aid at 2.5.

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Kümmel
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Kümmel » Fri May 25, 2018 1:28 pm

Hennessy wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:50 pm
Nebby wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:18 pm
blueapple wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 pm
Hennessy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:02 pm
Is landlord-tenant work more commonly seen at private firms or PI orgs.?
on the landlord side, private firms. on the tenant side, PI orgs.
The typical type of PI org that does this is styled as a legal aid organization. Usually the term legal aid is in the name. E.g., Legal Aid Society (NYC), Legal Aid of the District of Columbia, etc.
In order to maximize potential for organizations like this, is it important to do 1L/2L-summer internship in the same geographic region as the type of firms you want to get hired at post-grad?

I say this because I sort of know larger cities (e.g. NYC, DC like you mentioned above, or Chi) have a lot more resources for work like this, and I wonder whether pursuing legal aid internships in smaller cities/rural areas is either a. unlikely or b. not conducive to what big metropoli PI organization want to see.

Or am I totally wrong, and you should expect to intern/work summers specifically at an org. you want to be hired by?
Don't totally understand the question, but I think you're approaching it a bit wrong. You should always prioritize spending time at orgs that you hope to get hired full-time. But that doesn't have to be summers. If you're going to law school in a big city you can do externships/clinics/internships etc. during 2L and 3L semesters to be at those big city offices. Typically, don't waste a summer at those same offices.

As to a different question you seem to be asking, It's kind of the reverse of what you think. If you want to work in a more rural area you should spend your summers in that area. It hurts you more applying to a rural office full-time with only big city experience because those smaller rural offices hire so few they really want to be sure you're committed to the office if you get an offer and that you'll stay long-term. Big city offices don't care as much, because they typically hire more people/don't have that same concern that you'll want to continue to live there.

That's a pretty broad generalization. Happy to help more/answer more specific questions.

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Hennessy
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Hennessy » Fri May 25, 2018 3:18 pm

I guess my question was, would applying/pursuing legal aid or PI internship/work in smaller cities (Philly/Baltimore), be looked upon negatively by larger city (NYC/DC) organizations when it comes to permanent hiring. Thank you both, that's really helpful. Seems like the takeaway is no.

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Kümmel
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Kümmel » Fri May 25, 2018 4:15 pm

Yeah definitely not, other than the fact that you’re foregoing the opportunity to work directly at those orgs and other indirect benefits like higher chance your supervisor at org A in NYC is friends with people at other orgs in NYC you might wanna work at. But yeah handicap is small compared to not working in Baltimore and then applying full time

undecided2021
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by undecided2021 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:19 am

I don't want to hijack Nebby's thread by bringing up criminal law, even though I had a big post lined up haha. I may change my mind later though...

In any case, any thoughts on how best to break into DOJ in DC from CLS or really from anywhere that isnt DC? I know there is a semester long DC externship at CLS, but I can't stomach the thought of paying $65k in tuition a year to spend a semester of it in DC working for DOJ and spending a few hours a week with a professor. The summers would be fine, as I'm not suffering the massive opportunity cost I would during the regular semesters. Is it possible to land a DOJ job by spending a summer or two there, but not a full semester?

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Nony
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nony » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:49 am

The only way to get into DOJ out of law school is through the Honors program, and the Honors program hires out of a huge range of schools. You don’t need to spend semesters in DC to get into the Honors program, summers are fine (and not even necessary if you get relevant experience somewhere else),

That said, Honors is extremely competitive just based on the numbers of applicants, so you would need a backup plan, but spending semesters in DC with DOJ over just summers isn’t likely to make a significant difference. I mean, on the margins, sure - the more people there you meet/work for, the more you have the opportunity to make connections, but it’s not expected/required that you spend semesters in DC.

Then later for jobs as a lateral it will depend what experience you have, not whether you’re in DC.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:39 am

undecided2021 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:19 am
In any case, any thoughts on how best to break into DOJ in DC from CLS or really from anywhere that isnt DC? I know there is a semester long DC externship at CLS, but I can't stomach the thought of paying $65k in tuition a year to spend a semester of it in DC working for DOJ and spending a few hours a week with a professor. The summers would be fine, as I'm not suffering the massive opportunity cost I would during the regular semesters. Is it possible to land a DOJ job by spending a summer or two there, but not a full semester?
Nony's advice is correct.

My additional 2 cents is that you should really try to intern at DOJ, and particularly the division or section you're interested in, before Fall 3L. This will put you at a huge advantage because you will be a "known commodity" to the hiring panel. Honors Program recruitment occurs during Fall 3L. The panel will have a slightly better conception of you compared to people who did not intern in that particular division or section.

The CLS in DC externship is a great opportunity, and it is much more preferable over classes if you're trying to break into non-big law. What do you find "hard to stomach" about the program? I think your understanding of opportunity costs is in reverse. You lose absolutely nothing by not taking classes for a semester because classes neither teach you legal skills related to practice nor do they matter for entry-level hiring.

What matters for entry-level hiring in non-big law contexts is the acquisition of as many hours of legal practice experience as possible. Therefore, the more you can spend practicing law and the less taking bullshit classes, the better.

I did the CLS in DC program and it definitely provide an advantage over my peers for hiring competitiveness because I had more legal experience than most if not all current 3Ls.

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Nony
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nony » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:14 pm

Yes, lots of pertinent experience and dedication to the mission are huge for DOJ. Arguably doing something that’s a little bit more inconvenient/takes some effort that’s geared specifically to that field looks good.

undecided2021
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by undecided2021 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:13 am

Nebby wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:39 am
The CLS in DC externship is a great opportunity, and it is much more preferable over classes if you're trying to break into non-big law. What do you find "hard to stomach" about the program? I think your understanding of opportunity costs is in reverse. You lose absolutely nothing by not taking classes for a semester because classes neither teach you legal skills related to practice nor do they matter for entry-level hiring.

What matters for entry-level hiring in non-big law contexts is the acquisition of as many hours of legal practice experience as possible. Therefore, the more you can spend practicing law and the less taking bullshit classes, the better.

I did the CLS in DC program and it definitely provide an advantage over my peers for hiring competitiveness because I had more legal experience than most if not all current 3Ls.
Re: opportunity costs, I feel as though attending law school and NOT taking classes amounts to giving tuition dollars away. I am paying top dollar to have access to legal scholars, or at least that's my understanding. Is it the case that "the acquisition of as many hours of legal practice experience as possible" takes higher precedence over having access to legal scholars? What I mean is: is it deleterious to your legal education [in relation to theory or whatever] to go to DC for a semester, even though it might bolster chances at DOJ?

undecided2021
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by undecided2021 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:16 am

Nony wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:14 pm
Yes, lots of pertinent experience and dedication to the mission are huge for DOJ. Arguably doing something that’s a little bit more inconvenient/takes some effort that’s geared specifically to that field looks good.
Hey Nony, can I PM you to ask you something specific about this? If I post my question, it will most likely out me to anyone who ever reads my resume.

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