Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
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Nebby
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Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:59 am

As a practicing-PI attorney, I can say with confidence that this YLS fact-sheet is an excellent primer for PI interested law students: https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... st-careers

To understand the charts below
  • For employment trends charts, the year is the class year, e.g., 2016 is the class of 2016.
  • For employment trends charts, the percentages are based on the number of full-time (long-term) PI-employed graduates divided by the total number of graduates. The total number of PI-employed graduates are in parenthesis. For these purposes, “PI” includes what the ABA required disclosure defines as “Public Interest” and “Government.” Thus, if a school has 3 Public Interest and 5 Government grads, then PI-employed graduates would equal 8.
  • For Skadden and EJW charts, the year is the fellowship class year, which is not the same as the law school class year. I.e., a c/o 2015 graduate could be in the EJW 2017 class year.
Trends over the last 3 years:
Image

Trends over the last 6 years:
Image

Skadden Fellows since 2010:
Image
To see what organizations fellows were placed in, search the Skadden Fellows directory.

Equal Justice Works (EJW) Fellows since 2009:
Image
To see what organizations fellows were placed in, search the EJW Fellows directory.

For judging a school's PI culture, I'd look more at the total number of graduates from each school rather than the percentage alone because PI is self-selecting whereas biglaw is the default (at the top schools). For instance, Michigan has a higher percentage than CLS, but total number wise they're roughly the same.

There are also some nuances to these numbers. For instance, the majority of students at Michigan, UVA, and Cornell go to government, whereas the majority of Harvard, CLS, and NYU go to PI.

For purposes of this data I combined them because government and PI people are both self-selecting and have similar motivations.

LRAP Program Overview
All top law schools have a Loan Repayment Assistance Program, which are programs that assist students who choose to enter public interest or government employment with repaying their law school debt. Usually, this assistance takes the form of a forgivable loan that disperses in annual checks/deposits that equal your annual repayment burden on your law school debt. For instance, if you owe 100k at graduation, then you would pay ~10k a year under a 10 year repayment plan. The annual check/deposit from your LRAP program would equal ~10k. But some schools have better LRAP terms than others.

Each program various with regard to: (1) how much your adjusted gross income affects your LRAP benefits; (2) how long you have to work until you can leave the LRAP program without owing your law school repayment for the LRAP benefits; (3) whether your spouse's income counts for purposes of calculating your LRAP benefits; (4) whether your benefits change if you combine the LRAP with the federal Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program; and many more. This section will attempt to provide the barebones of each schools' LRAP.

Click here to view LRAP spreadsheet

Testimonials
Below are anonymous testimonials from PI students and alums at the T14 schools.

University of Chicago Law School
Not a common choice for students seeking public interest work, except for some government positions. But even then, only a few of my classmates were seriously seeking gov't work. UChicago is far better at Biglaw placement (and lately, clerkships) than anything else. That said, it is not the case that UChicago has nothing to offer PI-minded students.

The Mandel Legal Aid Clinic has some incredible opportunities for exposure, especially in the realms of public defense, innocence work, police accountability, environmental litigation, and international human rights. The other clinics may also offer good exposure opportunities but I am just less aware of them. In particular, UChicago's clinic turns out incredibly talented and well-prepared public defenders.

Because the school does not attract a ton of PI-minded students, you do not have to compete for jobs or fellowships against people with similar resumes to yourself (more than one interviewer mentioned how hard it was to distinguish resumes from certain other schools). This also means that the PI network at UChicago is tight, and comprised of people who really wanted to do PI work. This network has become important in my life post-graduation, for both personal and professional reasons. We all seem to have had an experience in which an interviewer asked why we went to UChicago if we wanted to do PI work. We also all seem to have had an experience in which an interviewer said that UChicago was such a rare sight in their resume pile that we got an automatic pass on the first level of review. In my experience, interviewers all said that while UChicago was unusual for a PI candidate, it was also a school that had the reputation for turning out diligent and smart lawyers, so it was only a plus factor.

Note, the school only has three journals, and those journals are not particularly well-suited to PI-type writing. Where other schools have journals about criminal or social justice issues and the law, or other specific topics, UChicago has only Law Review, the Journal for International Law, and Legal Forum. This is really not that big of a deal, but this is one resume point that will be harder for you to obtain, possibly. This is a bigger deal for PI students who want to clerk right away. Consider writing on the journals, even though it might not relate directly to your interests.

UChicago generally has one or two EJW or Skaddens per year, skipping a year every now and then. Career Services has one (1) person dedicated to public interest, and reviews of this person are very mixed. My personal experience was: meh. Not a huge help, but not a hindrance. On the issue of major fellowships,I did not love the PI Career Services here, as I felt they really did not encourage or facilitate students through the application process for prestigious fellowships very effectively. I obtained a well-regarded (but not Skadden/EJW-level) fellowship on my own, entirely without the knowledge or help of the PI Career Services office.

The LRAP is great until it isn't. If you make under $80k in a PI job during the ten years after you graduate, LRAP pays 100% of your IBR payment. But the process for reimbursement from the school is extremely (unnecessarily) bureaucratic and slow, and must be repeated every year. Also, if you make $80,001 you get nothing at all (it might be $79,999 vs $80,000 actually). No sliding scale. But your spousal income is not factored in at all. While most PI jobs start out below that $80k cap, it is common to make more at some point during the ten years, so you do end up paying at least part of your loan yourself before PSLF comes in and wipes out the rest.

In hindsight, would have maybe been better off going to a Columbia or Berkeley or Stanford, but I don't have any major regrets. Had to hustle a lot harder to get what I needed, but I am currently in a job/on a career arc I love, at least partly thanks to the name on my diploma. UChicago is not trying to be the public interest school of choice, but it also is not totally worthless in that regard. If a PI career is ALL that you are interested in getting from law school, maybe consider elsewhere. But if you want the specific experience or legal education that UChicago offers, then know that it is not impossible to also get into a PI job.

Columbia Law School
I think Columbia is a great choice for students interested in public interest or government practice. The school has a separate office dedicated solely to PI students called Social Justice Initiatives (SJI). SJI does everything that a typical career service office does (advising, resume/cover letter help, etc.) but they also have relationships with the vast network of CLS alums working in public interest and government. This network can help get students internships/externships, as well as post-graduate jobs. SJI also helps support students financially to attend PI law conferences and helps support the numerous PI-focused student organizations hosts events. CLS is known as a "corporate" school, but it's PI community is vast and impressive.

CLS has tons of opportunities for out-of-classroom learning experiences. Up to 30 credit hours at CLS can be non-graded credits, which means that you can take up to 30 hours of clinics, externships, and fieldwork (more than any other law school). In addition, CLS offers a full-time, semester-long externship in the federal government in Washington, DC, and it also offers human rights semesters abroad. SPIN (Student Public Interest Network) is the main PI student organization where PI students of all goals can socialize and meet fellow students.

The post-grad employment in PI and government is fantastic. There are students who obtain ultra-competitive positions at nonprofits, Skadden/EJW fellowships, DOJ Honors, district attorneys offices, public defender offices, and honors fellowships at federal agencies. The school also offers inhouse fellowships for PI students to pursue their project-based or issue-based advocacy goals with organizations across the country doing impact litigation, direct services, and public interest advocacy.
NYU Law
NYU is a great place for people interested in public interest. The school has a separate career services office for public interest students (the Public Interest Legal Careers center, or PILC), and it’s a huge part of what sold me on the school. I watched some really naïve kid walk in there with some vague interest in international human rights, and leave with three possible realistic career paths and a list of possible internships that would be good stepping stones. While I was there, my PILC counselor was really with me every step of the way and it was a huge support – she helped me with my resume and cover letter, helped me pick places to apply, held mock interviews for me, and put me in touch with NYU alums who had the jobs I was interviewing for.

One of the truly great advantages of NYU is the crazy good professors. Burt Neuborne, who directed the ACLU under Reagan, teaches the First Amendment as well as Civ Pro and Evidence with a great social justice slant. Bryan Stevenson, who founded the Equal Justice Initiative and argued cutting edge death penalty cases before the Supreme Court teaches Racial Justice, a death penalty clinic, and an Eighth Amendment class. Wilma Liebman, who chaired the NLRB under Obama, taught my labor law class. Sally Katzen, the Administrator of OIRA who was responsible for reviewing all the regulations in the Clinton administration, teaches administrative law. Really, these people are legends, and it’s amazing to get to learn from them.

The clinics are also really special. You can work at the ACLU, represent death row inmates in Alabama, work for a nonprofit like Make the Road New York, participate in ongoing litigation on behalf of employment discrimination plaintiffs, etc., under the close supervision of practitioners. It’s a great opportunity for substantive experience - someone in my clinic even got to take the deposition of an expert in a First Amendment case (while most of my friends in big law have yet to even defend a deposition, let alone take one).

Finally, the community is the best. Going to school with so many passionate people committed to public interest helped me keep going, and provided a source of support and comfort when things got difficult.

I feel really lucky to have had the opportunities I had at NYU, and I'm so glad I decided to attend.
UC Berkeley (Boalt) Law
I chose the school partly because of its location to reputable public defender offices, and partly because of its reputation. What I know now after going through the process of internships / job applications and working in real world for a few years is that school matters less than the work you do when you're in law school.

Berkeley's career services are adequate. I say adequate because there is not much more Berkeley, or most other law schools, can do for you at the end of the day. You're not going to get some kind of incestuous hookup between Berkeley career services people and the prestigious public interest offices. That's not how this works. Career services is not going to find you a job. Do they know some good offices to intern for? Yes. Do they know some of the people at those offices? Yes. Can they help strategize where to apply and intern? Of course. And I would hope that rings true for just about every law school. At the end of the day, public interest success is what you make of it. It takes hard work and more than a little luck to get the job(s) you like out of it. Intern, intern, intern. This matters more than anything else you can do. Prove yourself by demonstrating that you are for real about the type of work you want to be doing.

The big name prestige certainly counts for something when it comes to applying nation-wide. However, I don't know that public interest offices think there's something special about Berkeley over other T-14 schools. I do believe I had a great advantage over many other applicants in my Midwestern state because of the value of having Berkeley on the resume. Still -- students from lower-ranked schools who interned in the locations they wanted to work have high degrees of success. If I had gone to my state's flagship school and interned in public defender offices there, I probably could have landed the same job I have, without any of the debt.

The debt is real. Think very hard about it. I honestly do not know if it's worth taking on in this current political climate. Boalt's LRAP program is solid. I've experienced pains in dealing with it -- they're a well-meaning but small-staffed office. You need to plan ahead when dealing with them. On the whole, it helps a lot in ways that my colleagues who didn't come from T-14 schools cannot enjoy. But think critically about whether you want or even need to put yourself through all this debt.

And God, PSLF... I have nightmares about what will happen now that Trump is in office. If you're between a full ride at a T-20 in the state you want to practice public interest law in, and a small or no-scholly at Boalt, then take the full ride. The extra pinch you get from having the T-14 name at the top of the resume is not worth it when you can get the field of public interest law you want from other schools.

"But isn't the 20% rate of students at Cal who go into public interest worth something?" Well, maybe. I mean, it's neat to go to school with so many similarly minded people who also like public interest law. But it's less notable than you might think. Most law schools are liberal. Most T-14 schools are also liberal. You're going to be meeting the same students with the same general student culture at almost all of them. Yes, there are the more conservative standout schools. UVA, though, also has a strong public interest reputation. This is a relative issue and should not be driving your decision on where to go to school unless you're keen on joining some very specific student groups that don't exist elsewhere.
Northwestern University School of Law
I have incredibly mixed thoughts on going to Northwestern as someone who wanted to do public interest. Yes, I was in the minority. Yes, the school lacked structure for PI students. But at the same, time, Northwestern was perfect for me and my goals, and it absolutely got me where I wanted to be.

I think part of being successful at getting the PI job you want at Northwestern is being self-sufficient. The school isn't going to baby you and set things up for you the way that they do for students who want firm jobs. But Northwestern also has a lot of things that make for great resume-building for people who want PI jobs. I did two different clinics that were relevant to the work I wanted to do after law school, and I got to do a lot of real, substantive work--on both litigation and policy. Northwestern also has a few journals that are relevant to PI work, and on the smaller journals it's fairly easy to get published. Plus, being in Chicago gives great opportunities for internships both during the summer and during the school year. This is all great for resume-building and ultimately getting a job after graduation.

My friends and I who wanted PI jobs pretty much all got what we wanted, but it wasn't exactly an easy road. That said, I think I absolutely went to the right law school and I now basically have my dream job.
Georgetown Law
Georgetown Law is a fantastic place for anyone interested in public interest law, and it’s easy to see why Georgetown has more students who go into public interest and government service than any other law school. Career services has a separate office (OPICS) devoted solely to public interest students that is staffed with six full-time employees. The student public interest community is also large. Do you want to be a public defender? There are over 100 1/2/3Ls that want that, too. Prosecutor? Same. Government? Same. Legal services? Same. There’s also a more public interest oriented first year curriculum (Section 3) that really helps manage the detachment from reality that is the hallmark of 1L life. For those worried about the temptation of abandoning the public interest dream for the security of a huge private sector paycheck, the presence and support of other public interest students can be helpful. There’s also a Public Interest Fellows (PIF) program that provides programming activities during the semesters.

For me, the most important reason I’ve loved Georgetown so much is that I’ve had ample opportunities to gain the kind of practical experience that has made me very competitive for jobs. Georgetown is an amazing location for internships, especially because it has the best reputation in D.C. I’ve worked for top-level agency heads, a Senator, and an enforcement arm of an agency. Building that experience and professional network has been crucial for interviewing and to keep abreast of opportunities as political winds continue to change. Georgetown also has one of the best clinical education programs in the entire country. Want to work on civil rights, environment, asylum, public defense, litigation? There’s a clinic for that. The experience I’ve gained in these positions has made law school, and Georgetown, worth it. That said, it’s been very helpful to come into law school knowing exactly what I wanted to do. For those that don’t want to work in government and find the public interest environment difficult (e.g. the budget at your dream organization gets cut.) Georgetown has its own fellowship programs that helps students get experience partnering with D.C. organizations.

Georgetown’s LRAP is great. Assuming you’re making less than 75k, you’re not paying a dime in loans. Getting rid of PSLF may change that calculus for folks, however, so I still suggest you bargain hard for tuition discounts (wherever you go). Georgetown also has the Public Interest Law Scholars (PILS) program, which automatically lets you take 1/3 off tuition and can be combined with merit/need aid. It’s one of the few ways you can go to school without paying tuition at a T14.
Last edited by Nebby on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:47 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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guy
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by guy » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 am

thanks for migrating this, its a really helpful thread.

I think these numbers are right for c/o 2016:

Berkeley: 65/330
Chicago: 26/215
Columbia: 35/389
Cornell: 13/184
Duke: 15/224
Georgetown: 138/652
Harvard: 65/598
Michigan: 42/327
NYU: 79/485
Northwestern: 24/249
Penn: 19/258
Stanford: 22/183
UVA: 34/330
Yale: 23/203

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Stranger
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Stranger » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:16 am

guy wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 am
thanks for migrating this, its a really helpful thread.

I think these numbers are right for c/o 2016:

Berkeley: 65/330
Chicago: 26/215
Columbia: 35/389
Cornell: 13/184
Duke: 15/224
Georgetown: 138/652
Harvard: 65/598
Michigan: 42/327
NYU: 79/485
Northwestern: 24/249
Penn: 19/258
Stanford: 22/183
UVA: 34/330
Yale: 23/203
Texas: 51/362
UCLA: 51/316
Vanderbilt: 22/182
Wash U: 23/226
USC: 28/200

Gorrest_Fump
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:28 pm

I've got a fairly long LRAP question here and would appreciate your collective knowledge:

Is a full-ride at a non-HYS t13 preferable to a 150k debt at HYS for a person doing PI?

Context:
I notice that non HYS t-13 schools have IBR and PSLF-linked LRAP programs. HYS, on the other hand, do not. My concern here would be to enroll at a non-HYS t-13 with a full scholly, then participate in the LRAP program, only to have politicians in DC axe PSLF and IBR, by which time my debt would have ballooned thanks to negative amortization.

I think NYU protects students from negative amortization if they choose to go into non-PI work by making a one-time payment that would bring their debt to the levels at which they would have been for a student who had enrolled in a 10-year standard repayment plan.

Career Goals: Criminal Prosecution (AUSA or State dont really care)

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:32 pm

Gorrest_Fump wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:28 pm
I've got a fairly long LRAP question here and would appreciate your collective knowledge:

Is a full-ride at a non-HYS t13 preferable to a 150k debt at HYS for a person doing PI?

Context:
I notice that non HYS t-13 schools have IBR and PSLF-linked LRAP programs. HYS, on the other hand, do not. My concern here would be to enroll at a non-HYS t-13 with a full scholly, then participate in the LRAP program, only to have politicians in DC axe PSLF and IBR, by which time my debt would have ballooned thanks to negative amortization.

I think NYU protects students from negative amortization if they choose to go into non-PI work by making a one-time payment that would bring their debt to the levels at which they would have been for a student who had enrolled in a 10-year standard repayment plan.

Career Goals: Criminal Prosecution (AUSA or State dont really care)
First, even if PSLF is axed, it will grandfather in loans issued prior to the repeal. The current legislation repealing PSLF (which won't pass) has a grandfather provision, and the Trump Administration's education policy proposals from last year also contained a grandfather provision.

Second, CLS also offers a non-PSLF-linked LRAP program.

Third, a full-ride at non-HYSC T13 is preferable, if you think there's any chance you'd want to lateral into the private sector within the first 10 years of practice.

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:56 pm

Thanks, Nebby. The info you provided will definitely help in making a decision.

Do you think you could share why you think the PSLF repeal won't pass? Not doubting you, but would like to know more about the subject since it will likely play a large role in my decision.

Also, what do you think would happen if PSLF gets axed while somebody is, say, a 2L and still has to take on loans to complete his/her legal education?

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Tsuga » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:41 pm

Are there law school surveys/statistics that look at both input and outcome, instead of just outcome? Basically, things like how many students enter law school wanting to pursue big law, mid law, small firms, PI, or gov, how many students change their mind about this during school, how many students end up working in the field they desired 10 months after graduation, etc.

I asked this question on TLS and Nony said the following: "I can't remember the source, but I'm pretty sure there are schools that have tracked this, and especially for T14 schools where biglaw is realistic, IIRC lots of students come in wanting PI and switch to biglaw along the way; it's extremely common. (Sorry this is so vague - hopefully someone else will remember the source.)"

So if anyone know what surveys she's talking about or has similar info, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
Last edited by Tsuga on Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:35 pm

There were two ABA studies done in the mid-2000s done that showed a majority of PI hopefuls ultimately went to law firms due to debt. These studies were used as evidence in the committee hearings on the bill that created the PSLF program.

I'm at the gym rn otherwise I'd try to find them. There haven't been any studies (that I know of) since then.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Gorrest_Fump wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:56 pm
Thanks, Nebby. The info you provided will definitely help in making a decision.

Do you think you could share why you think the PSLF repeal won't pass? Not doubting you, but would like to know more about the subject since it will likely play a large role in my decision.

Also, what do you think would happen if PSLF gets axed while somebody is, say, a 2L and still has to take on loans to complete his/her legal education?
Won't get 60 votes in the Senate

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Tsuga » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm

Nebby wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:35 pm
There were two ABA studies done in the mid-2000s done that showed a majority of PI hopefuls ultimately went to law firms due to debt. These studies were used as evidence in the committee hearings on the bill that created the PSLF program.

I'm at the gym rn otherwise I'd try to find them. There haven't been any studies (that I know of) since then.
I found one by ABA from 2003: "Lifting the Burden: Law Student Debt as a Barrier to Public Service", and one by EJW from 2002: "From Paper Chase to Money Chase: Law School Debt Diverts Road to Public Service".

These are helpful in seeing how debt can deter people from PI/government, but ultimately I'm most concerned with those who aren't restricted by debt: if someone enters law school seriously wanting to pursue PI/gov, will they stay the path through graduation, and will they be able to get the job they want? I think it'd be interesting to understand a) how institutional factors or student bodies affect PI/gov "retention", and b) what the real job placement numbers are for students interested in PI/gov.

Like if 30% of NYU students and 25% of Columbia students enter wanting PI/gov, and by 2L/3L that number is 20% for NYU and 11% for Columbia, and then 10 months after graduation 16% of NYU students and 9% of Columbia students are working in PI/gov, that would tell me so much about the support PI/gov-interested students have at their schools, and how well students from these schools place into PI/gov jobs. Then, if I thought I needed a strong support system/community in school, I might choose NYU over Columbia for PI/gov despite similar success rates for those who do stick it out. On the other hand, if I was confident in my ability to stay the course and I had more money from Columbia than NYU, I might choose Columbia despite NYU's stronger PI/gov community.
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:09 pm

Jeff wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm
Nebby wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:35 pm
There were two ABA studies done in the mid-2000s done that showed a majority of PI hopefuls ultimately went to law firms due to debt. These studies were used as evidence in the committee hearings on the bill that created the PSLF program.

I'm at the gym rn otherwise I'd try to find them. There haven't been any studies (that I know of) since then.
I found one by ABA from 2003: "Lifting the Burden: Law Student Debt as a Barrier to Public Service", and one by EJW from 2002: "From Paper Chase to Money Chase: Law School Debt Diverts Road to Public Service".

These are helpful in seeing how debt can deter people from PI/government, but ultimately I'm mostly concerned with those who stay the path—are they able to get the jobs they want?
I don't know if anything like that exists. Schools might have individual info on it, but it's likely not public. I'd love to see it too.

I think the ability to stay the path and get a job in public interest is correlated with school rank and relevant legal experience in law school.

It's more of a crapshoot for government, because they aren't as selective based on school rank.

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:12 pm

Are there any schools in the T13 that have heavy defense/PI slants? Conversely, are there any schools that have heavy prosecution/government slants?

Can anybody talk about what, if any, appreciable effects result from finding yourself in a school with the opposite slant?

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 pm

Gorrest_Fump wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:12 pm
Are there any schools in the T13 that have heavy defense/PI slants? Conversely, are there any schools that have heavy prosecution/government slants?

Can anybody talk about what, if any, appreciable effects result from finding yourself in a school with the opposite slant?
I think it's worth breaking down your question. First, there are three categories: (1) public interest (including defense), (2) prosecution, (3) non-prosecutorial government.

At CLS, I did not notice any particular category favored. The majority of grads went into public interest, but that's a function of PI being broader and thus having more jobs than the other two categories. If we're just doing defense v. prosecution, there was equal representation among my classmates.

In each school's employment data, you can view the difference between PI and government. I included them both together in my data above for simplicity's sake. However, if you want to go through each T14's employment data and chart both PI and Government as a percentage of the whole class, and then create a ratio of each school, then I would put it in the OP. All this data is available in their annually required employment ABA employment publication.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:34 pm

guy wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 am
thanks for migrating this, its a really helpful thread.

I think these numbers are right for c/o 2016:

Berkeley: 65/330
Chicago: 26/215
Columbia: 35/389
Cornell: 13/184
Duke: 15/224
Georgetown: 138/652
Harvard: 65/598
Michigan: 42/327
NYU: 79/485
Northwestern: 24/249
Penn: 19/258
Stanford: 22/183
UVA: 34/330
Yale: 23/203
Are these (PI + Gov) / (entire class) ?

Some people do (PI + Gov) / (# employed), but I want the percent based on total class, which includes unemployed.

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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Echos Myron » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:19 pm

Nebby wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:34 pm
guy wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 am
thanks for migrating this, its a really helpful thread.

I think these numbers are right for c/o 2016:

Berkeley: 65/330
Chicago: 26/215
Columbia: 35/389
Cornell: 13/184
Duke: 15/224
Georgetown: 138/652
Harvard: 65/598
Michigan: 42/327
NYU: 79/485
Northwestern: 24/249
Penn: 19/258
Stanford: 22/183
UVA: 34/330
Yale: 23/203
Are these (PI + Gov) / (entire class) ?

Some people do (PI + Gov) / (# employed), but I want the percent based on total class, which includes unemployed.
Those are the graduating class sizes (entire class of 2016) -- I cross-referenced the Harvard and NYU numbers with LST

Gorrest_Fump
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:15 pm

After doing some research, I have compiled this table. It is supposed to show what type of PI (Non-Gov v. Gov PS) graduates from the below schools are working in. Feel free to correct me, if I've gotten some numbers wrong. I did this with my boss periodically walking by at work.

* This table might be useful for people trying to determine whether a particular school is more PI-oriented or whether it is more Gov/Prosecution-oriented.

** Don't be fooled by the right-hand column. Just because one of the fields is particularly high does not mean that that is the best university to go to if you're interested in doing government work. Berk, for example, has a lower gov/pi ratio than duke, but it sent almost a tenth of its class to government jobs whereas only 6% of Duke grads did the same. A more useful way to reason through the data is as follows: If I am interested in being a prosecutor, and if i decide to go to X school, will that school atmosphere help prioritize me and my interests, or that of students interested in doing a different sort of non-private work.

School Government (%) Non‐Gov PI (%) Gov/PI
Yale 8/194 (4.12) 18/194 (9.28) .44
Stanford 10/176 (5.68) 12/176 (6.82) .83
Harvard 18/588 (3.06) 48/588 (8.16) .38
Columbia 17/382 (4.45) 18/382 (4.71) .94
Chicago 12/215 (5.58) 14/215 (6.51) .86
NYU 24/478 (5.02) 56/478 (11.72) .43
Penn 8/253 (3.16) 11/253 (4.35) .73
UVa 22/323 (6.81) 12/323 (3.72) 1.83
Michigan 29/317 (9.15) 16/317 (5.05) 1.81
Duke 13/216 (6.02) 6/216 (2.78) 2.17
Berkeley 29/316 (9.18) 39/316 (12.03) .76
Cornell 9/177 (5.08) 8/177 (4.52) 1.12
NU 12/236 (5.08) 13/236 (5.51) .92

Gorrest_Fump
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:22 pm

Dang it, i spent half an hour hitting spacebars to make the table more readable only to find out that the website jumbles it up again after clicking submit :/

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guy
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by guy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:52 pm

Nebby wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:34 pm
guy wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:15 am
thanks for migrating this, its a really helpful thread.

I think these numbers are right for c/o 2016:

Berkeley: 65/330
Chicago: 26/215
Columbia: 35/389
Cornell: 13/184
Duke: 15/224
Georgetown: 138/652
Harvard: 65/598
Michigan: 42/327
NYU: 79/485
Northwestern: 24/249
Penn: 19/258
Stanford: 22/183
UVA: 34/330
Yale: 23/203
Are these (PI + Gov) / (entire class) ?

Some people do (PI + Gov) / (# employed), but I want the percent based on total class, which includes unemployed.
whole class, yeah. I would have linked each schools report, but it was easier to just pull them off the ABA website so I did it that way.

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Nebby
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nebby » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:21 pm

The charts have been updated!

Gorrest_Fump
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Gorrest_Fump » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:48 am

I spoke to the Dean of NYU earlier today. He told me that if students enrolled in law school were to live through a repeal of IBR/PSLF, the university would continue to operate the LRAP for those students in the same way, essentially picking up the tab associated with the transition from the IBR based LRAP to one not based on IBR/PSLF

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Nony
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nony » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:52 am

Going back to the “do people who come in wanting PI end up in PI?” question - something that may or may not be about institutional support is the role of OCI. It can be very difficult to pass on OCI, especially at a school where the vast majority of students are going through OCI. The opportunity to lock down a job early can be very tempting (I don’t think this is only about debt but it can be related - the more anxious you are about graduating without a job due to debt, presumably the more appealing OCI looks). Also, there are also people who will go into biglaw immediately after graduation but who plan to transition into some kind of PI at a later point, so the numbers aren’t as clear as they could be. (And frankly I think there are also people who go to law school initially planning on PI because it’s the feel-good option for an 0L but who don’t actually know much about legal jobs or have much background for PI and end up in OCI. By no means is this all of the PI-oriented crowd, but there are some.)

Tl;dr - I’m sure support for PI varies at different schools, but not everyone comes in with the same degree of commitment to it, either.

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Nony
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nony » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:54 am

Nebby wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 pm
I think it's worth breaking down your question. First, there are three categories: (1) public interest (including defense), (2) prosecution, (3) non-prosecutorial government.
I’m curious how you came up with this particular division because I’ve not seen anyone split criminal defense/prosecution before and deem one PI and the other not.

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Stranger
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Stranger » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:26 am

Nony wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:54 am
Nebby wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 pm
I think it's worth breaking down your question. First, there are three categories: (1) public interest (including defense), (2) prosecution, (3) non-prosecutorial government.
I’m curious how you came up with this particular division because I’ve not seen anyone split criminal defense/prosecution before and deem one PI and the other not.
How does the ABA categorize them in the mandatory reports?

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Nony
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Nony » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:35 am

Public defenders funded by the government aren't PI, those that aren't funded by the government are (but I'm pretty sure this means non-profit orgs and doesn't include actual private practice):
11) Government. Government employers include federal, state and local governments.
Government positions include positions in governmental agencies, military positions, and
prosecution positions. Government positions also include governmental public defender and
appellate defender positions.

12) Public Interest. Public interest positions include legal services positions that are funded by
the Legal Services Corporation or a similar funding entity; positions with other organizations
that provide indigent or reduced-fee legal services, such as prisoners’ legal services and campus
legal services; and positions with public interest and non-profit employers, including private
non-profit advocacy, religious, social service, fund-raising, community resource, or causeoriented
organizations. Public interest employers also include labor unions, non-profit policy
analysis and research organizations, and public and appellate defender positions not funded by
the government.

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Stranger
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Re: Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials)

Post by Stranger » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:01 am

Nony wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:35 am
Public defenders funded by the government aren't PI, those that aren't funded by the government are (but I'm pretty sure this means non-profit orgs and doesn't include actual private practice):
11) Government. Government employers include federal, state and local governments.
Government positions include positions in governmental agencies, military positions, and
prosecution positions. Government positions also include governmental public defender and
appellate defender positions.

12) Public Interest. Public interest positions include legal services positions that are funded by
the Legal Services Corporation or a similar funding entity; positions with other organizations
that provide indigent or reduced-fee legal services, such as prisoners’ legal services and campus
legal services; and positions with public interest and non-profit employers, including private
non-profit advocacy, religious, social service, fund-raising, community resource, or causeoriented
organizations. Public interest employers also include labor unions, non-profit policy
analysis and research organizations, and public and appellate defender positions not funded by
the government.
So, do folks talk about public defender jobs like they're PI because they don't know how the distinction splits, or are the non-government public defenders common enough to be representative?

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