UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Discuss comparisons of various school choices and the various metrics that inform them, including rankings, student life, location, etc.
minerva
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by minerva » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:59 pm

Getting to Maybe was vaguely helpful, but yeah reading a supplement now is a terrible idea. Don't overdo it. There's very little you can do at this point.

I did read The Legal Analyst by Farnsworth before starting 1L on the recommendation of a professor and found that very helpful. It's a good introduction to law and economics and may be required reading in your Elements class. If you absolutely MUST read something, read that, but again, I echo Beep and Lean and encourage you to chill. Nothing you do now will put you in a better place to reach the top of the class.

Appellate_Litigator
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by Appellate_Litigator » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:19 pm

Do you have any examples of how professors teach things from a different angle? People say that but I don’t know how it plays out.

Are there any classes that you can prepare for ahead of time? I heard that contracts and civil procedure you can study early because they’re so rules-based. Also, does anyone know if Posner’s Economic Analysis of Law is any good?

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beep
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by beep » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Sure, the classic example is torts. What are the elements of a negligence cause of action?

... I would literally never know the answer based only on UChicago first semester torts. We just didn't cover it. My professor was amazing and hugely influenced how I think about things/the law/etc, but spent next to no time on black letter law. He did not believe "duty," in particular, was a real concept, even as every torts hornbook on the planet includes it as an element of negligence and features chapters of cases about when a duty exists, who owes a duty under what circumstances, etc. This sort of doesn't do full justice to it, but his view was that everything in torts is better explained by behavioral economic concepts - coasian bargaining, what deal the parties would have made beforehand, etc etc. So we'd read the same cases from the textbook as everyone else, but instead of exploring, like, "when does a duty exist," we'd explore the behavioral economics behind the fact pattern in the case. You might think, well, I'll eventually want to know both, and that's true when you're studying for the bar (or really, you'll just want to know the hornbook stuff) but very not true when studying for this professor's exam. If you read hornbooks/textbooks carefully and methodically you'll develop a pretty traditional set of instincts, and that set of instincts will serve you poorly on this prof's exam. You might also think "what about just reading behavioral economics books" or something, but it's not even standard behavioral econ in a lot of places, it's UChicago law prof version within the context of particular cases that he likes in the textbook. I'm generalizing a bit much here but I would be very skeptical that substantive prep would help much.

Civ pro seems preppable for the reason you say. I still don't recommend doing that. Contracts might be elsewhere if they focus more on the UCC, but at least my year we spent a lot more time on common law and I don't think substantive prep would be helpful for the same reason as torts. Depends a lot on professor. I feel pretty strongly that soft factors - how much people have their own brains / life / etc in order - are more influential in first year success than substantive knowledge, even after classes start tbqh. I was probably median at best in terms of how much law I could recall going into 1L exams, and made K&E.

Things that I do think helped:
- Having a study group to bounce stuff off of / help me recognize when I didn't understand stuff
- Taking notes by hand (solely because I am super distractable when at a computer, like now, when I should be working on a memo - but turned out to help me digest everything since I had to transfer all the notes from paper to outline, and decide what was important / not important / not fleshed out enough during the outlining process)
- Spending a few nights a week not thinking about law (pub trivia, pottery class, gf obligations) and generally taking care of myself rather than studying 24/7
- Taking a lot of practice exams once I'd finished outlining each quarter and spending as much or more time comparing my answers to the models as I did outlining

Like at most one of those is something you can work on before law school (getting hobbies, solidifying good sleep habits, etc.). I bought getting to maybe but didn't read it or any other legal-related book before law school. I guess I did read Collapse of American Criminal Justice but just for fun and that was during the 0L app cycle, not as 1L prep. It's not to say you don't need to know any law to do well on a law school test, you will, but you want that to be filled with the version of law that your professors have taught (generally). I guess civ pro would be fine since it's not like there is too much room to differ in interpreting various rules in the FRCP but eh. I just don't think it will help much. If you try it, report back next Dec/Jan with how it worked out.

To be clear, the above is just what worked for me, and is basically an informed guess of strategies that might generally be useful. Lots of people do some of the above (especially study groups and practice exams; I think only one or two others in my sections took notes by hand) and don't do as well. Maybe for you you need the extra familiarity with black letter law to move on to the second/third level concepts that are useful for gaining mastery sufficient to kill on a law school exam. Dunno. Just from observing myself and classmates, the substantive side of things often feels like the least important, so that is primarily why I am skeptical of substantive prep as conferring any advantage. Law school can be pretty grueling and I would not want to burn myself out on stuff before even starting, but you do you.

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Fox
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by Fox » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Would anyone be down to critique my bidlist? I got some feedback from OCS, but I’d be really appreciative if any 3Ls/alumni would be willing to look it over. :) (There’s not already a thread for this anywhere, right?)

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beep
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by beep » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:42 pm

On TLS we'd often post them anon with the following info:

Unofficial gpa
Honors (K&E, LRW)
Journal
Target markets
Markets where you have ties, if any
Of course, the actual bidlist

Can't remember if it was in the normal thread or the class thread or whatever. Might be worth some rising 2L to post a UChicago OCI 2018 thread, if there's enough interest, or we can just do it in here. Or if there's already a UChicago class of 2020 thread, maybe there?

If y'all don't feel comfortable posting them publicly, free to PM me any bidlists for DC/LA, can't really speak too intelligently on the particulars of other markets (but will comment if something is posted and looks really egregiously bad/wrong)

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necho2
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by necho2 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:48 pm

beep wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:42 pm
On TLS we'd often post them anon with the following info:

Unofficial gpa
Honors (K&E, LRW)
Journal
Target markets
Markets where you have ties, if any
Of course, the actual bidlist

Can't remember if it was in the normal thread or the class thread or whatever. Might be worth some rising 2L to post a UChicago OCI 2018 thread, if there's enough interest, or we can just do it in here. Or if there's already a UChicago class of 2020 thread, maybe there?

If y'all don't feel comfortable posting them publicly, free to PM me any bidlists for DC/LA, can't really speak too intelligently on the particulars of other markets (but will comment if something is posted and looks really egregiously bad/wrong)
I'm gonna make a thread for it like we used to on TLS, unless there's something about the jury-rigged anon that makes that not a good idea?

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necho2
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by necho2 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:54 pm

Ok, made it here

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2844

Seconding Beep though, if you have questions about the West Coast more generally, feel free to just PM me as well.

minerva
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by minerva » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:31 am

Hi Beep would you mind PMing me? I've shot you a couple of PMs but not sure I did it correctly. Sounds like your expertise will match up perfectly with my bidlist, so would love your input.

Thanks a ton!

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beep
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by beep » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:16 am

I'll PM you back, but the reason I haven't responded has been that the only question you've asked is what firm I'm at. I am super outable once you know that, so I don't feel super comfortable answering.

minerva
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by minerva » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:27 am

My apologies Beep! Interested in all your collective wisdom, not just that :)

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walks
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by walks » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:48 am

I'm an incoming 1L and I live in Pilsen; is it reasonable to think that I can bike to school? It's an easy 30-minute ride and I could shower and change at Ratner before class. I also have a car but that doesn't seem like it would necessarily be a more efficient commute (~20 minutes w/ traffic, more to find parking), especially since I'd still have to find time to hit the gym.

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beep
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by beep » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:57 pm

I knew a girl who did exactly that bike commute during UofC undergrad. I thought she was insane especially given winter. If not for her I'd say good luck but apparently it's doable. She was a pretty committed biker though, and in undergrad rather than law school.

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archipm
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by archipm » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:05 pm

yeah my biggest concerns would be 1. winter and 2. late nights/flexibility to stay on campus or hang out in hyde park late since most people will be living in HP. I could see it being a pain and/or creepy to ride your bike home for 30 mins in the middle of the night. I'm also not a bike commuter so idk how much this matters for cycling but sometimes you may need to carry a few heavy AF books with you and if that is exhausting on a bike then that is something to consider

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beep
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by beep » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:26 pm

I guess I shouldu also add that I biked regularly during 1L from regents area down to the law school and it was not too bad. If you're doing that commute a lot you probably have a good bike backpack that distributes the load. I had a Chrome one that I liked a lot (and still use - it's about 10 years old at this point). But that was like a 10-15m trip at most and I would not want to triple that. Also never did it during the winter - just something I did whenever it was warm enough. I suspect I would've enjoyed it a lot less had I been forced to do it actually every day throughout the entire year.

Also worth noting that everyone gets a locker and if you are really diligent about doing reading at the law school it is totally realistic to keep some/all of your books there. I definitely kept the worst/heaviest 1-2 books per quarter there and just always did reading for those classes at the law school when I could get away with it, and brought them home otherwise (or on days I didn't bike)

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walks
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by walks » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:48 pm

beep wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:26 pm
archipm wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:05 pm
Thank you both! I'm an avid biker and I have no problem biking late at night in the city, so I think it's worth a shot at least.
FWIW I commuted from Bridgeport as an undergraduate, but not until my 4th year and by then I only had class a couple times a week and rarely brought more than my laptop to school. I also have a car to drive when its too cold to bike, but given my experience trying to find parking in HP, biking seems genuinely easier as long as there isn't snow on the ground. I guess I am a little concerned about getting burnt out doing it every day, though.
How heavy does the load of books get? I use saddlebags instead of a backpack and I bike comfortably with a lot of stuff on the regular and ideally I would do most, if not all, of my work in HP before heading home for the day, regardless of whether I bike or drive.

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archipm
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by archipm » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:09 pm

Well like beep said you will have a locker so if you do all your work at school then the weight of the books is irrelevant. Idk exactly how much they weigh but it is enough that when I walk (about a mile and a quarter) to campus and I have two of them in my backpack with my laptop it is uncomfortably heavy. However the way the schedule is set up during 1L you usually end up with weird periods of time between classes when you can do reading, or you can get to campus early/stay after class to read there if you prefer.

LawSSS2
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by LawSSS2 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:55 pm

I'm thinking about doing some side work during my first year. It would be pretty low key, maybe 5 (at most 10) hours a week. The work is fairly easy, although time-consuming, and the employer is very laid-back and relaxed. Is this a bad idea or have other people worked during their first year?

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David Lean
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by David Lean » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:23 am

LawSSS2 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:55 pm
I'm thinking about doing some side work during my first year. It would be pretty low key, maybe 5 (at most 10) hours a week. The work is fairly easy, although time-consuming, and the employer is very laid-back and relaxed. Is this a bad idea or have other people worked during their first year?
I'm sure people have done it, but I don't think anyone in their right mind should.

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RoyalHollow
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by RoyalHollow » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:37 am

LawSSS2 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:55 pm
I'm thinking about doing some side work during my first year. It would be pretty low key, maybe 5 (at most 10) hours a week. The work is fairly easy, although time-consuming, and the employer is very laid-back and relaxed. Is this a bad idea or have other people worked during their first year?
If you do not HAVE to do this, you should not do this.

Appellate_Litigator
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by Appellate_Litigator » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:51 pm

I’ve been thinking about employment, and I’ve concluded that my dream firms are Skadden and Cravath. Is there anything I can do to maximize my chance at getting a job there? I live in NY - would it be helpful to send one of the partners an email to see if they want to get coffee?

P.S. I’m moving into Chicago in the 1st. HMU if you want to hang out!!

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David Lean
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by David Lean » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:24 pm

Appellate_Litigator wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:51 pm
I’ve been thinking about employment, and I’ve concluded that my dream firms are Skadden and Cravath. Is there anything I can do to maximize my chance at getting a job there? I live in NY - would it be helpful to send one of the partners an email to see if they want to get coffee?

P.S. I’m moving into Chicago in the 1st. HMU if you want to hang out!!
Do not do this.

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necho2
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by necho2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:23 pm

Appellate_Litigator wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:51 pm
I’ve been thinking about employment, and I’ve concluded that my dream firms are Skadden and Cravath. Is there anything I can do to maximize my chance at getting a job there? I live in NY - would it be helpful to send one of the partners an email to see if they want to get coffee?

P.S. I’m moving into Chicago in the 1st. HMU if you want to hang out!!
Do not do that, and hold off on even thinking about what would constitute a "dream firm" until Spring of 1L at the earliest.

Appellate_Litigator
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by Appellate_Litigator » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:00 pm

Thanks for the advice! Sorry if my question was bad — coming from a total background of nonprofessionals

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necho2
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by necho2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:40 pm

Appellate_Litigator wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:00 pm
Thanks for the advice! Sorry if my question was bad — coming from a total background of nonprofessionals
Yeah don't worry about it at all, it's just that you're way too close to the beginning of the road to be limiting yourself to a couple of firms in the whole constellation of even solely corporate law. And reaching out to random partners (unless you have a very specific practice area interest, professional experience with it, and they do as well) just isn't likely to be successful at all without a prior in. Basically, I'd say save those networking reachouts for either a 1L summer in NY, and definitely Skadden (and maybe Cravath?) do all sorts of events during 1L year. If you insist on zeroing in on those firms, save your energy for those events, where the attorneys are specifically lined up to talk to clueless law students.

Assuming you have 100% perfectly nailed the universe of legal jobs you'd be happy in (unlikely), then the most important thing is to do well during 1L. So take a leaf from Beep's (plant-based I guess, idk where this metaphor came from...) advice upthread, and cultivate some emotionally and physically healthy habits with your remaining free time!

HydePark
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Re: UChicago Students and Grads Taking Questions and providing positive externalities

Post by HydePark » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:27 pm

Is there any way for law students to learn some real economics at the Law School without knowing calculus beforehand? I know you can take economics classes across the Midway, but I’m not sure if you can take the calculus that’s prereq to classes in the ECON dept. Maybe the economics sequence at Harris, which doesn’t have a MATH 15300 prereq?

Not sure I’d want to do this anyway because economics is hard and time-intensive, but I’m curious if it’s even possible.

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