CS career megathread / AMA

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effdee
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by effdee » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:05 pm

get the counter and then take it to the new company for a higher starting salary

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:06 pm

*pls don't quote

yeah I understand that i can legally not share. but my question is whether i can "legally" share the letter with current company, and not be in any violation. is it protected by labor laws in cali?
a lot of opinions on whether counter should be accepted or not, but i'm interested to know what they can offer.
i also understand that they "shouldn't" need to see the letter.
but big company like mine manager can trust you or even try but HR would stall. it really depends on HR person in this instance.

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effdee
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by effdee » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:08 pm

whether you have some confidentiality obligation to the new employer is going to depend on what the letter says and what you agreed to re confidentiality. i very much doubt there's a blanket rule saying offer letters can't be confidential or w/e

old employer could try to fuck with you by calling new employer to "verify" offer of employment too

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haus
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by haus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:13 pm

I agree with effdee, unless there is something in the letter itself or some specific agreement in your negotiations to this point there should not be any confidentiality.

If you do hand it over, I hope that your existing company does not use it to cause you headaches. Even if it is only a small chance that they would, I would be hesitant to find out.

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:14 pm

*pls don't quote

NLRA has a provision that enables discussion comp. but not sure if it applies to sharing offer letter.

https://www.mossbollinger.com/pay-secre ... alifornia/

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:19 pm

*pls don't quote

yeah, i don't want any headache esp bc external is what i'm planning for. and old company can follow me there causing enormous lost sleep. that's why being extra cautious. when i mentioned potential issue to confidentiality, mgr said he asked both legal/hr, but they were simply reiterating "show us the letter" instead of really trying to resolve whether it could be ok to share or not based on NDA.


re the comment above about using it to get higher offer.
someone at my company did this. they got a higher one from amazon. gave notice at current, but manager came back with offer higher than amzn by a good amount. he'd signed with amazon. so he called amazon manager, telling him about the development. amzn said they'd beat the counter by another solid amount, but he said no at that point. ended up reneging on amazon and stayed at current with a good hike.

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haus
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by haus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:33 pm

It is a small world, if you do opt to leave and take a new position, there is a good chance that your former employer would find out at some point where you have gone. But I would be less bothered about the old employer figuring this out after I had already started the new gig than I would be before I had started.

But perhaps that is just me.

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:34 pm

*pls don't quote

> letter itself or some specific agreement in your negotiations to this point there should not be any confidentiality.

the NDA says any confidential information or financials or any documents shared during or after interview process are considered confidential, can't be shared.

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:35 pm

*pls don't quote

already told my current one the external company and the comp numbers verbally. issue is sharing the offer letter is ok or not.

California labor code 232 suggests it might be protected.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... ionNum=232

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notachicken
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by notachicken » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:41 pm

i'd just follow the nda, though an nda doesn't normally cover an offer letter.

i don't think that statute can be read to apply to job offers

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:50 pm

*pls don't quote

the nda doesn't say offer letter is confidential though from what i could make. it uses generic language like "any confidential information or financials or any documents shared during or after interview process are considered confidential, can't be shared." and then describes "confidential" in terms of iteself, such as confidential information is something that can reasonably be considered confidential.

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haus
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by haus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:51 pm

notachicken wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:41 pm
i'd just follow the nda, though an nda doesn't normally cover an offer letter.

i don't think that statute can be read to apply to job offers

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:02 pm

*pls don't quote

i was wondering reason why it can't be read to apply to job offer?

the law prohibits this. "(b) Require an employee to sign a waiver or other document that purports to deny the employee the right to disclose the amount of his or her wages.". this means that job offer signed had nothing that prohibited disclosing wages which are part of offer letter. unless offer letter contains something else that's "confidential" it'd be protected under this.




i think during talking with manager i said something along the lines of i could share letter if needed, so feel really bad that may have to backtrack. this is after i had initially not shared due to confidentiality concern, but in the general pace of talking while giving notice it may have been seen as i'd share. somehow feel like not keeping my word.

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haus
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by haus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:52 pm

Off the top of my head the reasons that I think that (b) would not apply to the offer letter.

* You are not currently an employee of the company that has offered you a job.

* The wages discussed in the offer letter are just that an offer, not your actual wages.

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notachicken
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by notachicken » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:21 am

^^ the statute applies to employees not applicants, and actual wages not the terms of an offer letter

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:25 am

Did your company say that providing a screenshot of the offer email isn't sufficient? I think it's bad form to insist on a pdf of the actual offer letter.

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:26 am

That said, if you're talking about the offer company you've posted about previously, people share offer letters from them with competitors all the time without issue. And their level ranges are widely publicized online.

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:15 am

*pls don't quote

re the statute. i've already signed their offer, so may be protected as their "employee" once i join them for having shared wages in the offer?



re the picture, would a picture of screen the similar thing as sharing the actual letter from legally? manager said that picture would be ok, but how is it different than sharing letter. during the fluidness when talking i can see that he's now expecting that i would share as it may have come across that way. Just feel like i may have raised his hopes about sharing but not sure if sleepless nights worrying about potential issues is worth it.
it's the same company posted about previously. i know people share it very easily all the time without qualms. not many in tech do, but that's not a high bar may be.

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:34 am

Screenshot of the recruiter's offer email (congrats, here's your base/bonus/equity/sign-on) should be different from a screenshot of the actual offer letter. Did your manager say that wasn't sufficient?

Or get on a zoom call and share your screen if you're that paranoid.

Story
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by Story » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:32 pm

App, you’re kind of asking for legal advice. You’re asking people to interpret and apply laws to very specific circumstances.

If you have real concerns, talk to a lawyer.

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effdee
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by effdee » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:40 pm

create a fake offer letter from a different company but having the same terms, then you can share it freely because it's not confidential

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suralin
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by suralin » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 am

ppl share offer letters all the time. p sure you’re way overthinking this. and yeah a screenshot should be more than sufficient

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Johannes
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by Johannes » Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:46 am

Yeah you’re way overthinking this app.

If you’re super concerned just redact everything other than the company name and paragraph with the salary/benefits.

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:05 am

Yeah not legal advice but in your shoes I would show that fucker if I wanted to stick around at my old job.

Also not legal advice, but I would also trust your instincts re: sharing screenshot vs sending letter not being a relevant difference, just in case you have some documents that actually are confidential.

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