CS career megathread / AMA

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Johannes
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by Johannes » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:29 pm

Congrats on the offer as well!

Obvi lawyer perspective here but more generally if you are up for a work life challenge temporarily, those types of jobs can open lots of doors down the road

app
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:51 pm

wizzy wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:09 pm
thanks. i am not so much concerned about the gold-star or the hype around fb (already had a known hard to get in ug eng school and in tech it doesn't matter much anyway, i think). a lot of their publicity for recruiting seems over-intense, at least from my perspective. not sure if it'd really open any new opportunities, as i'm already at a company that has name recognition but is from old-economy (like cisco/amd/ibm/intel/nvidia etc). and all the tech hiring these days being so coding/interview-performance oriented it doesn't seem to matter where one works at.
plus ramp up during covid shutdown at companies like fb sounds much harder than in usual times.

pls don't quote, thx
Last edited by app on Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:55 pm

what is PSC?
i've heard if you get a Meets-most rating it's beginning of downfall. there are some stories posted on teamblind about PIP and wlb that are scary as hell. someone recently posted how they switched from G to fb only to be fired recently, at which point they went back to G for a higher level.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:57 pm

Johannes wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:29 pm
agree with the challenges part. it's just that making such a move and ramping up in a new role during this shutdown time is harder than usual.
Last edited by app on Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

the irony of this is that i don't have a facebook account or like the interface or used it regularly except for whatever any rare links sent by others in emails or web browsing over the years. glad it wasn't an interview question.

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:57 pm

app wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:55 pm
Performance summary cycle. It's fb's perf. I was under the impression that the most common path to a quick PIP was the standard meets all rating for the first cycle followed by meets most then meets most + PIP. But I'm not sure what percentage of the company actually gets PIP'd, and blind makes it seem like it's not close to Amazon levels.

Are you talking about this post? https://www.teamblind.com/post/I-got-fi ... a-5bdPP4jE

Seems like a Googler who was already on the path to L7 promo (SEE before they left) and then got unlucky with a bad manager at fb. That type of SWE probably found a cushy team at G and knew the org well enough to maximize impact, so odds are that his G experience was going to be better than his next company regardless of where he went unless he was really able to hit the ground running. I think that an analogous story might be someone who is crushing it at fb with greatly exceeds and then switches to G and gets CME'd to death with no promo possibility.

The latter scenario doesn't involved getting fired because that's pretty rare at G, but I wouldn't read so much into one anecdote. The positive tradeoff of PSC culture is that fb has higher growth possibilities and quicker promo compared to G's slow promos. Fb's multipliers are also higher for refresh/bonus if you're on the top end of performers (1.25x for exceeds, 2x for greatly exceeds, and 3x for redefines compared to 1.2x/1.5x/1.8x for EE/SEE/S at G).

Obviously a personal decision and depends on what your current job is like, but I'd be very tempted to take fb. What's the comp jump from your current company to fb?

If you left and didn't like fb, would you be able to go back?
Last edited by wizzy on Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:01 pm

I would get suralin's input if he's still around

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:06 am

wizzy wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:57 pm
are you at fb or did you work there? what's CME?

yes i was talking about that post, but it's kinda hard to believe. i don't go to that site much bc everything there seems to be about a pissing contest, but was browsing it recently to get an idea of fb culture. looked at their bootcamp videos where they their cto says paraphrased "everything we do is about doing meaningful things, making a positive difference in our communities. money is only secondary". sounded very hokey, cultish to me. hopefully it's not as bad as it seems to be from the outside.

yeah, multipliers are strong at fb. but i'm not chasing tc tbh. i'm older than typical fb hires at my level. the difference between 1x and 2x could be 150k, but i'd rather have better wlb, much less stress and a stable 1x than a stressful 2x. it seems there GE worker can make same as average of 1 level higher worker.

current job has been good wlb recently, which makes it complicated. it's with comp committee right now but i don't expect a huge comp bump. max of the offer level should be about 150k higher than my current. so even if they make their top offer, which is unlikely, after taxes it'd be 90k/yr more, which is like 7.5k more per month for potential much more stress.
Last edited by app on Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:11 am

not sure if i'd be able to come back from fb if i didn't like it. being an old economy company, these things aren't standardized as much as they are at new companies like FB, G etc.
we don't even have a very solid perf review system with people eagerly pushing to get EE, GE ratings. from biz point of view it's not good, but from worker wlb pov it's good.

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Johannes
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by Johannes » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:33 am

Why did you apply in the first place?

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:46 am

Not at fb and never worked there. Just really interested in fb, have a couple friends there now, and have done way more research on it than is probably healthy. Would love to work there some day.

CME = consistently meets expectations, which is a G rating

For G: Needs improvement (0x), consistently meets expectations (1.0x), exceeds expectations (1.2x), strongly exceeds expectations (1.5x), superb (1.8x)

For FB: Meets some expectations (0x), meets most expectations (0.8x), meets all expectations (1.0x), exceeds expectations (1.25x), greatly exceeds expectations (2.0x), redefines expectations (3.0x)

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:47 am

Definitely don't want to make it seem like I know what I'm talking about with fb, and suralin is the guy you want answering your questions here. Just throwing ideas out from what I've seen/heard rather than first-hand knowledge, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Also, banking on multipliers above 1.0x or 1.25x is probably never a good idea because there's just too much noise once you're shooting for strongly/greatly exceeds and above. I feel you on wanting a stable and lower stress 1x, and it seems like you've got a good thing going with comp even if fb would throw you another 100k to 150k more.

I think the delta will be well above 150k in years 2/3/4 though with big refreshers and fb's stock performance (I'm really bullish on fb stock still). With refreshers stacking and stock appreciation compared to a legacy company, you could be looking at 200k to 300k more by year 4.

I've always gotten the impression that the horror stories are a little overblown for fb and that it can be a great place to grow your career and open other doors. It seems like you're saying that the added resume value compared to what you have is minimal though and that the additional comp might not be worth the extra stress, so that's obviously a personal decision.

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suralin
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by suralin » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:41 pm

app wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:02 pm
suralin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:04 pm
i’m in a golden handcuffs situation with snap’s stock appreciation so don’t have much personal insight, but seems p much like business as normal, maybe slightly more difficult. am going ahead with a netflix interview though just out of curiosity, pretty unlikely that i’d actually take it
what is snap? what kind of work you do?

i've not interviewed that much recently so am ignorant about a lot of new companies.
snapchat, senior backend SWE, work on a combination of distributed systems and product ML

re: FB, the work culture isn't as bad as it's represented on blind etc, but work-life balance is def not at google/msft level

wiz is right that generally 2 MMs = PIP, and that even getting one isn't great. a ton though depends on your specific team (and manager) and your level. the nice thing about FB is that you have like 2 months during "bootcamp" to experience different teams/orgs and to pick a good team, and if you're direct with what you're looking for (eg don't be afraid to ask about pulse (internal culture survey) scores), it shouldn't be too hard to find a good fit. the team I was on at FB was relatively chill, most ppl worked <50 hrs/wk, i worked like <40 hrs/wk usually

if you're not too concerned about TC, then I feel like it depends on whether you're still learning and interested in what you're doing at your current role. comp and stress aside, you can definitely grow a ton at FB, even if it's just for like a year, before jumping back to a more relaxed gig

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suralin
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by suralin » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:49 pm

one thing to add re: FB's perf process is that it's very data- and impact-focused, which is a double-edged sword at higher lvls. it basically doesn't matter how much you work, it comes down to the metrics you've moved through the features & projects you've delivered. so some luck comes into play on working on the right things (or on coming up with the right projects to try to ship) and on working with PMs / designers / other teams/stakeholders to get your work to the finish line

so some stress comes from that, and some stress comes from, tbh, the types of ppl who are at FB. a lot of overachieving gunners so a lot of ppl feel pressure to keep up and ship features quickly. if you can opt out of that culture and/or find teams that aren't like that, it's really pretty "normal" WLB-wise

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by suralin » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:54 pm

also getting GE+ is basically impossible unless you've been downlvled. i got 2 in a row bc initially downlvled coming from a not-great background, but if I joined FB now at E5+ I would just aim for MAs

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:48 pm

re. why applied post above in the thread. i didn't, recruiter reached out and around thanksgiving there were a few days free.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:56 pm

wizzy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:47 am
yeah, i'm trying to see if it'd be easier to go to G from fb or or from my current company in future. i know for sure i can't withstand fb culture for long. up until a few months ago, i thought fb and G were similar in opportunities, work culture, difficulty etc. but only in the last few weeks as i went through this process, i'm beginning to see the difference.

fb is constantly moving, very biz driven, and hack(er)ish. G is more stable, more top down, more engineering focused from what i could gather. not sure i can sustain constant messaging on some internal chat, which from the way recruiter and interactions with fb people during interviews occurred seem to be the norm there.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:04 pm

the gunner culture is what worries me. it's much more than what i've seen in G employees i've interacted with.

i was told bootcamp to be only 6 weeks, have they changed from 2 months to 6 wks recently (may be due to covid)?
from what recruiter tells me, i'm pre-allocated for a specialist role (as opposed to generalist track which has team match during bootcamp) so my team matching happens before the offer, and wouldn't have an option to match teams/change teams during bootcamp. already have 1 team manager who matched. still go through bootcamp to learn the fb tools/processes but no team match option there and so bootcamp is reduced to 5 weeks for specialist track. this is all according to recruiter but it does sound kinda constraining a bit. have you heard of this?

idk, even 35 hours per week of work constantly over months on end can be very draining. i feel exhausted if i sit down every M-Fr for 7 hours straight (with breaks) doing sw dev or actual work. i think if one actually works 35 hours/wk a lot of extra time (may be even 15-20 hrs) they spend thinking of things related to work. i think if after adding those extra time it goes above 40hrs, it begins to become draining.

i actually asked the HM during team match chat a question trying to figure out wlb but he/she kinda gave a non-answer, which didn't seem good.
Last edited by app on Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:13 pm

would you know how the wlb is in AI Infra group? any specific teams within this large group that may have better wlb?
(i'd remove the name of the group later)

please don't quote

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:32 pm

I think that G hires more people from FB than from anywhere else and that FB hires more people from G than from anywhere else, so I do think it'll be easier to score an interview at G if you have FB on your resume if that's your goal.

But I also don't know how much of that is selection bias because SWEs at FB are more likely to be able to pass interviews at G than from a non top N tech company because of the overlap in skillsets/leetcoding. At minimum, it's probably a strong signal, and signalling seems like it goes hard at these places.

If you are already getting G interviews, then I would say the boost probably isn't there since it seems like you're good at LC. But if you're not getting interviews, then I think FB almost guarantees you an interview at G (and at FAANGMULAS/whatever the acronym is now).
Last edited by wizzy on Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:35 pm

suralin wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:54 pm
also getting GE+ is basically impossible unless you've been downlvled. i got 2 in a row bc initially downlvled coming from a not-great background, but if I joined FB now at E5+ I would just aim for MAs
Is this for GE+ during your first cycle or are you saying in general at the higher levels for future perf as well?

Don't you need GE+ to get a promo? Or is the idea that E5 is terminal, so most people aren't progressing beyond that anyway.

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wizzy
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by wizzy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:54 pm

app wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:04 pm
the gunner culture is what worries me. it's much more than what i've seen in G employees i've interacted with.
I think this is a fair sentiment comparing the two in broad strokes (obviously could still find a chill team at FB and a bad team at G depending on managers). I think FB gives you lots of growth opportunities since they move faster and you can have greater impact. Also can have higher comp potential. But the downside is the decreased wlb on average.

I think G is kind of a rest and vest retirement home where launches are slow, and everything is about putting a design doc on your design doc so others can review your design doc with half the company giving you comments. But the upside is the increased wlb on average.

I've heard some people describe it to me as FB is better for early to mid career when you're a young whippersnapper in your 20s and want to learn a lot of shit + grow your career then hit up G when you have family/kids and are ready to coast.

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Johannes
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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by Johannes » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Fair enough re taking the recruiter call.

If you aren’t at all curious about the “what could be”, I think your decision is made and there’s nothing wrong with that. Careers are a means to an end. Do what you want and what will make you happy.

I have a lingering nag that you took the interview wondering what could be. And if you did, I think you may be overemphasizing the risk of failure and clouding your judgement about a great move.

I’m no CS/engineer ( I follow that industry for investment purposes from laymen perspective). If you failed at FB (worst case scenario) isnt it still gonna set up a kush Landing at G or NVidia I would think?

Moreover to Suralins point about your results being metric driven and thus kind of up to luck, this would seem to me an outsider like a great group to be able to succeed in with some coverage just because of how hot that area is right now at this moment.

Again, if you took the interviews just cause, congrats on the ego boost and get a few more bucks out your employer currently. But if you took the interview at all wondering about the challenger and feeling any excitement, I think you should at least accurately weight the risks against some of the excitement and challenge.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:16 pm

yeah, still weighing the pros and cons. one thing i think happens though is that people become a lot more risk averse with age, so trying to avoid any potential mismatch/failure at the next place.
Last edited by app on Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CS career megathread / AMA

Post by app » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:19 pm

suralin, do you know how long an offer remains valid or one can get the same offer without re-interviewing loop?

say if one says no to them, would they be able to get the same offer in Aug 2021?

or if one agrees to accept the offer, can they begin in 1 yr from now say Aug/sep 2021?

do you have to sign the offer to accept it, or one just verbally accepts it and no other paperwork before day-1?

don't have competing offers at the time.

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