So you think you want BigLaw?

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beep
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by beep » Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Depends. I've seen a ton of variation on the terminology for these in how they're listed on 2L SA apps. Would try both for research purposes.

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UVA2B
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by UVA2B » Wed May 23, 2018 10:54 pm

thegrandbudapest1 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:47 pm
SmokeytheBear wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:37 pm
They are an established thing. 8-10 weeks at a company. Some companies do something similar to what firms do--especially large companies--where you might float between their employment group, IP group, or whatever. Some companies have you slotted into one group. Some companies don't have groups and you just work along side the attorneys doing in-house like stuff (you'll need to consult a "what in house attorneys do" thread for this). Some companies only have these open for diverse attorneys.

tl;dr--they are an established thing.
Thank you! For research purposes, is “summer in-house intern” what they’re officially called? Or are they the same thing as “legal/compliance intern at XXX”
The position title will be whatever that company calls you. Some may call you a legal intern, others adopt the summer associate title. Once you start seeing job listings, it'll be immediately clear how you'll refer to yourself on your resume.

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SmokeytheBear
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by SmokeytheBear » Wed May 23, 2018 10:59 pm

The above is what I was going to write.

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UVA2B
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by UVA2B » Wed May 23, 2018 11:09 pm

To add one more thing on this: there isn't too much "research" you should be doing when looking for 1L in-house opportunities in advance of getting to law school. Not many 1Ls are advertising their in-house jobs on LinkedIn, etc., and it'll be mostly fruitless to look into random companies and the sort of hiring they do for their GC/legal offices for specifically 1Ls.

Do your research once jobs are being advertised on your symplicity. That's a much better form of research that will yield much better results.

Sloansabbith24
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Sloansabbith24 » Thu May 24, 2018 7:24 am

What are the motivations for 1L SA hiring? Since most people gain post-grad employment from 2L summers, is 1L hiring more of a simple "gain diversity, gain productivity" thing?

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UVA2B
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by UVA2B » Thu May 24, 2018 8:34 am

Sloansabbith24 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:24 am
What are the motivations for 1L SA hiring? Since most people gain post-grad employment from 2L summers, is 1L hiring more of a simple "gain diversity, gain productivity" thing?
It’s not exactly a “simple” motivation, and it’s not really a singular motivation. Diversity is a big component of it, but so is getting more “desirable” candidates earlier in their law school career and hoping to get them to come back, and some of it is developing and maintaining good ties to certain schools that the school wants better treatment from when 2L OCI rolls around.

There’s also a component that matters based on what market you’re talking about. Certain markets do more 1L hiring like Texas and a few secondary markets, which may be aimed at getting top candidates/diverse candidates and stealing them away from other markets that rely more heavily on 2L OCI.

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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Sloansabbith24 » Thu May 24, 2018 7:34 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:34 am
Sloansabbith24 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:24 am
What are the motivations for 1L SA hiring? Since most people gain post-grad employment from 2L summers, is 1L hiring more of a simple "gain diversity, gain productivity" thing?
It’s not exactly a “simple” motivation, and it’s not really a singular motivation. Diversity is a big component of it, but so is getting more “desirable” candidates earlier in their law school career and hoping to get them to come back, and some of it is developing and maintaining good ties to certain schools that the school wants better treatment from when 2L OCI rolls around.

There’s also a component that matters based on what market you’re talking about. Certain markets do more 1L hiring like Texas and a few secondary markets, which may be aimed at getting top candidates/diverse candidates and stealing them away from other markets that rely more heavily on 2L OCI.
That makes sense. Dumb follow-up question: if establishing ties with the school is a factor, does it reflect badly on the school if the 1L does not return to the firm? For instance, if a CCN person lands a V100 summer 1L, has a good experience, but wants to recruit for a V10 during 2l OCI.

Similarly, does YP exist in 1L recruiting, as in they only want people who are likely to come back later?

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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by UVA2B » Thu May 24, 2018 8:49 pm

Sloansabbith24 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:34 pm
UVA2B wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:34 am
Sloansabbith24 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:24 am
What are the motivations for 1L SA hiring? Since most people gain post-grad employment from 2L summers, is 1L hiring more of a simple "gain diversity, gain productivity" thing?
It’s not exactly a “simple” motivation, and it’s not really a singular motivation. Diversity is a big component of it, but so is getting more “desirable” candidates earlier in their law school career and hoping to get them to come back, and some of it is developing and maintaining good ties to certain schools that the school wants better treatment from when 2L OCI rolls around.

There’s also a component that matters based on what market you’re talking about. Certain markets do more 1L hiring like Texas and a few secondary markets, which may be aimed at getting top candidates/diverse candidates and stealing them away from other markets that rely more heavily on 2L OCI.
That makes sense. Dumb follow-up question: if establishing ties with the school is a factor, does it reflect badly on the school if the 1L does not return to the firm? For instance, if a CCN person lands a V100 summer 1L, has a good experience, but wants to recruit for a V10 during 2l OCI.

Similarly, does YP exist in 1L recruiting, as in they only want people who are likely to come back later?
It's more that it "can be" a factor, not that it explicitly is, to be clear. So, for instance, Weil NY may play preference with CLS or NYU 1Ls for their few 1L SAs because they know they'll want a strong relationship with CLS and NYU career services (and also to be clear, but this is entirely illustrative of a hypothetical, not an actual example. I have no idea how Weil is doing its 1L hiring or whether they in fact push for a strong relationship with those particular career services. They might, or they might just see NYU and CLS as another T13 they want a good relationship with). And while it can be a factor in some instances, there isn't any negative reflecting on the school if you did well and just explored other options for your 2L summer. So, taking your V100 vs. V10 options, it's entirely possible for you to get a V100 1L SA, get offered a touchback offer (where you do anywhere from 3-6 weeks at the firm 2L summer) with the expectation that you explore another firm with the rest of your 2L summer. Alternatively, if you don't do well or somehow ruffle some feathers the wrong way, you could potentially get no-offered knowing that you'll be fine and you'll find other options during 2L OCI.

YP is ridiculous as a concept in legal hiring once you get past the interviewing phase. If you are qualified to compete for the few 1L SAs a firm offers, they're going to weed out whether you're a flight risk during the interview phase of hiring. They won't look at a top 10% CCN student and actively think, "well they're probably just going to bolt for Cravath or WLRK, let's not hire them for a 1L SA," even if that might end up happening. If their 1L SAs don't come back, or alternatively only come back for a touchback offer, they still have a surplus of other candidates who will fill their 2L SA class. Believe it or not, law students are more fungible and replaceable than the entire SA hiring suggests. They'll do everything in their power to make you feel special during your SA while still assessing you for post-graduation offers, but the song and dance is a two-way tango.

thegrandbudapest1
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by thegrandbudapest1 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:48 pm

Should I waste my time applying to 1L SA if I am a KJD? I am diverse for the purposes of 1L SA criteria, and I know that grades will obviously be important, but I have no work experience other than college period internships. I would rather focus on studying and write-on during 1L than spend time mass-mailing if that would be a big enough negative.

bruh
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by bruh » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:52 pm

thegrandbudapest1 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:48 pm
Should I waste my time applying to 1L SA if I am a KJD? I am diverse for the purposes of 1L SA criteria, and I know that grades will obviously be important, but I have no work experience other than college period internships. I would rather focus on studying and write-on during 1L than spend time mass-mailing if that would be a big enough negative.
You're an 0L. Wait until you've almost done (or done) with one semester of school before asking this question. Your chance at a 1L SA can depend on a lot of factors, including grades, diversity, work experience, etc.

You haven't even started school yet. You have no idea what your schedule will be, how long it will take you to do certain tasks, etc. Chill and relax this summer!

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UVA2B
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by UVA2B » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:20 pm

bruh wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:52 pm
thegrandbudapest1 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:48 pm
Should I waste my time applying to 1L SA if I am a KJD? I am diverse for the purposes of 1L SA criteria, and I know that grades will obviously be important, but I have no work experience other than college period internships. I would rather focus on studying and write-on during 1L than spend time mass-mailing if that would be a big enough negative.
You're an 0L. Wait until you've almost done (or done) with one semester of school before asking this question. Your chance at a 1L SA can depend on a lot of factors, including grades, diversity, work experience, etc.

You haven't even started school yet. You have no idea what your schedule will be, how long it will take you to do certain tasks, etc. Chill and relax this summer!
Not to further pile on here, but being K-JD can matter in hiring, but won't necessarily. If you satisfy diversity hiring, you may be in the hunt, depending on all of the other things law firms consider in hiring SAs. Don't count yourself out because you think it'll be time wasted. And read the Unlocking 1L SAs threads if you have questions about how to get them/how to approach the hunt.

It's not wasting your time in applying to jobs. While studying and getting good grades is important in law school, law school should be singularly-focused on starting your career in the law. Don't forget that.

This is entirely premature, but you should appreciate something our site tries to convey (or at least I'd like to think we have a pretty coherent narrative on job hunting for law students), and that is a message of encouraging people to take control of their particular career narrative. So while we try to give advice about getting jobs in various practice areas and in various markets, we strive pretty heavily to avoid giving advice that just shouts "no" at you. Navigating the early years of a legal career is mostly unique to that person. We give advice as best we can based on general advice, but that fails to capture that people regularly overcome the general guideline advice we give, and sometimes people underperform based on the advice we provide. That's just the nature of the uncertainty of this career.

When you get to law school in the fall, focus on studying. Focus on socializing with your friends/classmates. Focus on transitioning to "thinking like a lawyer." But if you want to apply to 1L SAs when December rolls around, find a way to do that. You might not get one, but you might be able to snag one, in which case you'll be paid handsomely to work your summer job. You won't know until you're a 1L applying though.

BearCat
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by BearCat » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:07 am

Write-on happens in May. Applying for 1L SAs happens in December. You won't be studying after finals are over in December.

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:01 am

UVA2B wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:20 pm
This is entirely premature, but you should appreciate something our site tries to convey (or at least I'd like to think we have a pretty coherent narrative on job hunting for law students), and that is a message of encouraging people to take control of their particular career narrative. So while we try to give advice about getting jobs in various practice areas and in various markets, we strive pretty heavily to avoid giving advice that just shouts "no" at you. Navigating the early years of a legal career is mostly unique to that person. We give advice as best we can based on general advice, but that fails to capture that people regularly overcome the general guideline advice we give, and sometimes people underperform based on the advice we provide. That's just the nature of the uncertainty of this career.
+1. I have overcome many of the general rules discussed on this site—not with respect to 1L SAs but definitely in many other ways. You never know what could happen. Nothing will happen if you don't try.

samseaborn
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by samseaborn » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:24 am

Insight on which firms are strictly business formal/okay with business casual in V20? By no means basing OCI off this. Just curious

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barkschool
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by barkschool » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:50 pm

samseaborn wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:24 am
Insight on which firms are strictly business formal/okay with business casual in V20? By no means basing OCI off this. Just curious
I thought i was really just Jones day—-correct me if I’m wrong. That firm has other, sort of public, issues to use as an excuse to avoid

samseaborn
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by samseaborn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:09 pm

How frequent (on average) are all-nighters for junior corporate M&A or litigation associates (V20)?

Just wondering as I have some long-term health issues (hormonal, digestive) that aren’t serious but would be better treated with a semi-balanced lifestyle, including going to bed at a reasonable hour. I’m def ok with long hours and schedules like 7am-10pm, just wondering how likely associates are expected to stay in the office all night.

riot
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by riot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:17 pm

samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:09 pm
How frequent (on average) are all-nighters for junior corporate M&A or litigation associates (V20)?

Just wondering as I have some long-term health issues (hormonal, digestive) that aren’t serious but would be better treated with a semi-balanced lifestyle, including going to bed at a reasonable hour. I’m def ok with long hours and schedules like 7am-10pm, just wondering how likely associates are expected to stay in the office all night.
You might have to shift that from 10 am to 1 am. That’s pretty normal for me, but there are definitely times when I wake up to emails that people sent me at 3 am.

samseaborn
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by samseaborn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm

riot wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:17 pm
samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:09 pm
How frequent (on average) are all-nighters for junior corporate M&A or litigation associates (V20)?

Just wondering as I have some long-term health issues (hormonal, digestive) that aren’t serious but would be better treated with a semi-balanced lifestyle, including going to bed at a reasonable hour. I’m def ok with long hours and schedules like 7am-10pm, just wondering how likely associates are expected to stay in the office all night.
You might have to shift that from 10 am to 1 am. That’s pretty normal for me, but there are definitely times when I wake up to emails that people sent me at 3 am.
Oh crap. Goodbye health

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 pm

samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm
riot wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:17 pm
samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:09 pm
How frequent (on average) are all-nighters for junior corporate M&A or litigation associates (V20)?

Just wondering as I have some long-term health issues (hormonal, digestive) that aren’t serious but would be better treated with a semi-balanced lifestyle, including going to bed at a reasonable hour. I’m def ok with long hours and schedules like 7am-10pm, just wondering how likely associates are expected to stay in the office all night.
You might have to shift that from 10 am to 1 am. That’s pretty normal for me, but there are definitely times when I wake up to emails that people sent me at 3 am.
Oh crap. Goodbye health
I've gained 10 pounds as a first year lit associate, v50, and the stress is a big part of it. Some of that is my own poor time management but the pressure is definitely real.

I think you can do it but you're going to have to be really mindful of your time.

samseaborn
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by samseaborn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 pm

HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 pm

I've gained 10 pounds as a first year lit associate, v50, and the stress is a big part of it. Some of that is my own poor time management but the pressure is definitely real.

I think you can do it but you're going to have to be really mindful of your time.
Can I ask what the all-nighter situation is like in lit? Definitely just going to pick the lesser of two devils regarding sleep schedule lol

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:01 pm

samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 pm

I've gained 10 pounds as a first year lit associate, v50, and the stress is a big part of it. Some of that is my own poor time management but the pressure is definitely real.

I think you can do it but you're going to have to be really mindful of your time.
Can I ask what the all-nighter situation is like in lit? Definitely just going to pick the lesser of two devils regarding sleep schedule lol
It is infrequent for me. But I'm on the west coast, at a west coast firm. And the partners I work with do not regularly expect me to bill 2500+ hours a year like many NY biglaw lit shops. My worst month so far was just under 250 hours.

In other words, maybe don't aim for v20 lit in NYC?

Stirfry
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Stirfry » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:37 pm

A life spent sending emails and sitting on conference calls. Lmao

riot
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by riot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:12 pm

Stirfry wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:37 pm
A life spent sending emails and sitting on conference calls. Lmao
At least it’s not legal research

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beep
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by beep » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:14 pm

samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 pm

I've gained 10 pounds as a first year lit associate, v50, and the stress is a big part of it. Some of that is my own poor time management but the pressure is definitely real.

I think you can do it but you're going to have to be really mindful of your time.
Can I ask what the all-nighter situation is like in lit? Definitely just going to pick the lesser of two devils regarding sleep schedule lol
Also west coast lit at a west coast firm. I've probably done like 10-15 all-nighters coming up on two years of practice, but only like two of those were expected/required. Rest were just due to my own procrastination. And thankfully all were at home rather than in the office. I realize that's small consolation, but that sort of thing does matter sanity-wise.

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quiver
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by quiver » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:49 am

beep wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:14 pm
samseaborn wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 pm
HelloYesThisIsDog wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:39 pm

I've gained 10 pounds as a first year lit associate, v50, and the stress is a big part of it. Some of that is my own poor time management but the pressure is definitely real.

I think you can do it but you're going to have to be really mindful of your time.
Can I ask what the all-nighter situation is like in lit? Definitely just going to pick the lesser of two devils regarding sleep schedule lol
Also west coast lit at a west coast firm. I've probably done like 10-15 all-nighters coming up on two years of practice, but only like two of those were expected/required. Rest were just due to my own procrastination. And thankfully all were at home rather than in the office. I realize that's small consolation, but that sort of thing does matter sanity-wise.
This is going to vary widely by firm, practice area, and even specific partners. As beep points out, some associates also tend to pull all nighters more than others even when they're not technically necessary. I'm not sure there's a good way to generalize here.

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