So you think you want BigLaw?

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Fri May 11, 2018 11:39 am

Again, different agencies handle it differently. I don’t know if you’d get to GS-14 in literally three years, but in some agencies it would be relatively quick (it might also depend on what grade you start at and what level of experience is required for that starting level).

I am still completely confused by steps so someone else is going to have weigh in on that. I’m not at all confident that you go up a step every year because I think they are more contingent on performance. (Full disclosure: my agency uses a slightly different pay scale.)

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Slippin’ Jimmy
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Slippin’ Jimmy » Sat May 12, 2018 11:37 am

Random, sort of related question to the thread. How realistic is it to work in biglaw for a few years, and then transition into FedGov for PSLF purposes? That way you could make minimum IBR payments while in biglaw (which would probably still be high, but maybe less than the standard 10 year plan?) and save a bunch of money, and then go on PSLF to have the bulk of the balance forgiven.

My 0L plan is to work in biglaw and then move into FedGov after a few years, and it seems like it would be more cost effective to do this than to pay the loans off aggressively while in biglaw. But then again I'm a clueless 0L, so what do I know?

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Sat May 12, 2018 11:49 am

It's definitely possible - plenty of people go from biglaw to fedgov, and yes, your IBR/REPAYE payments would likely be less than the standard 10 year plan, depending on how much debt you have of course. As with everything, it's not guaranteed, it's hard to predict exactly when you will get into the fedgov job, and you have to be willing/able to stay in the job (or other public service) for 10 years. (There's also lots of discussion of PSLF potentially going away.)

Personally, I think approaches to this tend to be very personal/psychological - that is, for some people, having the debt hanging around is more stressful/draining than managing it and prolonging it; some people would rather have lower net worth but no debt, whereas others would rather build up assets even though it maintains high debt levels. If you go PSLF after biglaw that's going to prolong making payments, and you likely won't be making a dent in the balance on IBR/REPAYE etc., so for some people the anxiety of that's not going to be worth paying the loans off and being free of them. Other people are good with building up assets instead. People can debate the financial merits of both, but again, in the end I think it's an emotional thing rather than a strictly rational financial decision with an objective right answer.

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quiver
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by quiver » Sat May 12, 2018 1:26 pm

Nony wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:49 am
It's definitely possible - plenty of people go from biglaw to fedgov, and yes, your IBR/REPAYE payments would likely be less than the standard 10 year plan, depending on how much debt you have of course. As with everything, it's not guaranteed, it's hard to predict exactly when you will get into the fedgov job, and you have to be willing/able to stay in the job (or other public service) for 10 years. (There's also lots of discussion of PSLF potentially going away.)

Personally, I think approaches to this tend to be very personal/psychological - that is, for some people, having the debt hanging around is more stressful/draining than managing it and prolonging it; some people would rather have lower net worth but no debt, whereas others would rather build up assets even though it maintains high debt levels. If you go PSLF after biglaw that's going to prolong making payments, and you likely won't be making a dent in the balance on IBR/REPAYE etc., so for some people the anxiety of that's not going to be worth paying the loans off and being free of them. Other people are good with building up assets instead. People can debate the financial merits of both, but again, in the end I think it's an emotional thing rather than a strictly rational financial decision with an objective right answer.
As someone who has done this, I 100% agree with everything Nony said. I just want to further emphasize two points. First, your amount of debt is key here. If you only have like 50k in debt, it might be easier just to pay it off in biglaw and give yourself financial flexibility (and mental health) for the future, even if you want to do fedgov anyway. Second, depending on your focus, fedgov jobs are pretty difficult to get. If, for example, you only want to be an AUSA, I wouldn't gamble 200k debt on going fedgov + PSLF. Also, as Nony said, it's unclear how long PSLF will exist.

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Slippin’ Jimmy
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Slippin’ Jimmy » Mon May 14, 2018 12:36 pm

Thank you Nony and Quiver! I know its really early for me to be thinking about this, but its nice to see that others have actually gone down that path. I

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Hey_Everybody » Mon May 14, 2018 12:49 pm

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Mon May 14, 2018 1:03 pm

I don’t think any of the proposals have actually explicitly addressed it? People have presumed that people would be grandfathered, is what I’ve seen. I could be wrong on that, though.

The other issue with grandfathering in on PSLF is that you're not “on” PSLF until you’ve done 120 payments and apply. You’re on an eligible income-based plan that qualifies you to apply in future. So I think those income-based plans would definitely be grandfathered (I think they’re in your promissory note). But I can’t remember if PSLF shows up in the promissory note or not so I’m less confident in that.

(Mostly I’m not confident in anyone coming up with a proposal for getting rid of it that anyone can agree on, so I’m riding it out too.)

What I really think is most realistic is a cap on the amount forgiven, but this is all my opinion, I don’t have any inside information.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Hey_Everybody » Mon May 14, 2018 1:19 pm

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Mon May 14, 2018 1:27 pm

Thanks for clarifying! I honestly couldn’t remember if PSLF was in there. Still don’t think that prevents other bills from getting rid of/altering the terms of PSLF, but grandfathering certainly makes a lot of sense.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Hey_Everybody » Mon May 14, 2018 1:35 pm

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Mon May 14, 2018 1:45 pm

Me too!

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sev
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by sev » Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 pm

Slippin’ Jimmy wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:37 am
Random, sort of related question to the thread. How realistic is it to work in biglaw for a few years, and then transition into FedGov for PSLF purposes? That way you could make minimum IBR payments while in biglaw (which would probably still be high, but maybe less than the standard 10 year plan?) and save a bunch of money, and then go on PSLF to have the bulk of the balance forgiven.
Heads up that, at least for Duke’s LRAP, there’s a penalty/additional expected contribution for assets that you hold, so you may be able to have and eat your cake but you might not be able to save it.

Exact formula isn’t published but you can ask the financial aid office about it.

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SmokeytheBear
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by SmokeytheBear » Mon May 14, 2018 5:23 pm

I thought we were going to stop using the term "grandfathered"

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Nony
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Nony » Mon May 14, 2018 5:35 pm

You’re right. Sorry.

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SmokeytheBear
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by SmokeytheBear » Mon May 14, 2018 5:38 pm

Nony wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:35 pm
You’re right. Sorry.
No need to apologize.

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Mbanksy
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Mbanksy » Tue May 15, 2018 10:59 am

Hey_Everybody wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:19 pm
Nah, as someone who just had to fill out the loan paperwork for the first time, I can assure you that PSLF is in the promissory note. I triple checked that. Also, according to this article (and others like it) https://www.studentloanplanner.com/pros ... house-gop/
"the Direct loan program would cease issuance when the PROSPER Act takes full effect, but existing loans would continue to be around. Those who have Federal Direct loans would operate under the promissory notes they hold. That means you keep REPAYE, PAYE, PSLF, and forgiveness."
With the PROSPER act this means anyone who takes out their first loans in 2019 or after would be shut out of PSLF. I think repeal for future borrowers is definitely going to happen eventually, but I just can't totally imagine that they would pull the rug out from all the current borrowers who are counting on it and have it written into their promissory notes.

So, to chime in on this conversation, and to disclose I am a 0L and work with a member on the House Committee on Ed and Workforce, although built in the promissory Note, PSLF is not guarenteed for those making payments. Although very very very unlikely, if the PSLF fund were to be completely be drained then theoretically those "grandfathered" in could lose PSLF. As a 0L I don't really understand the legal aspects of it but I spoke with the member specifically about it and it is a matter of fed gov funding and the fact that congress can change the rules/funding of IBR and PSLF with almost complete autonomy. That being said, Foxx has specifically told the committee that eliminating PSLF for those making payments is not on the table, and protecting those making payments is a priority of Ranking Member Scott.

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Hey_Everybody » Tue May 15, 2018 11:02 am

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industwetrust
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by industwetrust » Tue May 15, 2018 11:21 am

Does PSLF being in the promissory note change that at all?

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Hey_Everybody
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Hey_Everybody » Tue May 15, 2018 11:48 am

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HelloYesThisIsDog
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by HelloYesThisIsDog » Tue May 15, 2018 12:07 pm

Isn't there some kind of reliance interest in PSLF's continued availability for borrowers? If Congress were so bold as to not grandfather at all, I see a lot of litigation happening.

Sloansabbith24
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Sloansabbith24 » Tue May 22, 2018 12:20 am

Just out of curiousity, around how many associates are in the M&A rotation overall in a typical NYC big law firm like Davis Polk or Cravath? If your school regularly sends a sizable chunk of people to one firm, are you likely to see your friends around often?

Mullens
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by Mullens » Tue May 22, 2018 1:46 pm

Sloansabbith24 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:20 am
Just out of curiousity, around how many associates are in the M&A rotation overall in a typical NYC big law firm like Davis Polk or Cravath? If your school regularly sends a sizable chunk of people to one firm, are you likely to see your friends around often?
I can’t speak directly to the first question. For the second question, I’m a junior in M&A and work with a couple of my good friends from law school. I see them around in the sense that we’ll go to lunch together or just chat in one another’s offices occasionally. I haven’t worked on a deal with any of my classmates as it’s somewhat rare for two people in the same class to be on the same deal and where that has happened, the other person on the deal hasn’t been one of my law school friends.

thegrandbudapest1
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by thegrandbudapest1 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:30 pm

Sorry if this doesn’t belong in this thread, but there aren’t that many relevant threads in this forum.

Incoming CCN student. Since 1L SA’s are hard to land, a piece of advice I’ve been seeing is to apply for in-house internships at corporations as well. Could someone tell me what this is? Is it an assistant intern to the in-house counsel sort of position, or are in-house summer gigs an established thing that I don’t know about?

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SmokeytheBear
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by SmokeytheBear » Wed May 23, 2018 10:37 pm

They are an established thing. 8-10 weeks at a company. Some companies do something similar to what firms do--especially large companies--where you might float between their employment group, IP group, or whatever. Some companies have you slotted into one group. Some companies don't have groups and you just work along side the attorneys doing in-house like stuff (you'll need to consult a "what in house attorneys do" thread for this). Some companies only have these open for diverse attorneys.

tl;dr--they are an established thing.

thegrandbudapest1
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Re: So you think you want BigLaw?

Post by thegrandbudapest1 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:47 pm

SmokeytheBear wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:37 pm
They are an established thing. 8-10 weeks at a company. Some companies do something similar to what firms do--especially large companies--where you might float between their employment group, IP group, or whatever. Some companies have you slotted into one group. Some companies don't have groups and you just work along side the attorneys doing in-house like stuff (you'll need to consult a "what in house attorneys do" thread for this). Some companies only have these open for diverse attorneys.

tl;dr--they are an established thing.
Thank you! For research purposes, is “summer in-house intern” what they’re officially called? Or are they the same thing as “legal/compliance intern at XXX”

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