WTO / compliance

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lawlita
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WTO / compliance

Post by lawlita » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:30 am

Hi there,

I'm an almost doctoral student and I have to write a paper about the compliance of export control regulations with WTO Law.
Specifically I am supposed to refer to controls of vaccines by the Europ. Union and the United States.
For the US part I need your help though, since I am not familiar with US-Law. I did a few researches already, but couldn't find an indication as to whether the US are even restricting exports in any form officially. Maybe I overlooked it? But if there was an official law, what would be the legal basis for it? I already read about the Defence Production act, what other legal basis are possible to impose export control/ban/restrictions in any form on Covid vaccines + materials? And if there is no official rule, how come that the US haven't exported any vaccines to this date, is this a choice solely made by the producers? (which is not comprehensible given the production of 164 millions vaccines and none left the country? I'm not allowed to post links, just put the twitter url in front of this-> /Airfinity/status/1374775074377588736/photo/1

Is anyone here, who could provide me with some information/references?

Thank you guys!!
Last edited by lawlita on Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

lawlita
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by lawlita » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:26 am

I feel like this is not the place I hoped to be:/
does anybody know, where I find all those law students/lawyers eager to engage in discussions about legal topics/problems?
where is the place to be:D

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DankHill
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by DankHill » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:49 am

.
Last edited by DankHill on Wed May 05, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lawlita
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by lawlita » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 am

Hi DankHill!

finally someone's reacting:)
That's true, there's some movement finally, but the information I am looking for is, on what legal basis is/was the withholding happening, or maybe someone's further into that topic and can provide speculations about secret agendas, why producers don't export. Even if from now on the US acted like other countries (exc. UK, since they hadn't exported one single dose either), the Q, whether they complied with exisiting laws/rules will still exist (note, that the first doses were inoculated 5 months ago). And my paper's gonna be about exactly this issue. Only focusing on legal problems, not political, though I might bring up some political aspects when arguing.

Do you know other communities with higher resonance? Maybe diving in legal discussions in forums is not a thing in the US, which'd be a bummer, but if there's a "crowdy" place, tell me where it is please:D

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Nony
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Nony » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:09 am

No one here can help you write your paper. Try Reddit.

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:21 am

For your own research help, I’d start with the BIS website. But I’m not sure that the export control regime is the issue here, it might just be the contracts with the US gov.

lawlita
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by lawlita » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:19 am

hey nony, try a snickers. no one said what you alleged. since I can't catch up a few years of law school overseas to get a grip of the US legal system, I asked for assistance in finding the legal basis for these export controls or clarification, when there's none. maybe legal basis is the wrong word for what I'm looking for. ideally I'd get helping bits like sec.731 of the tariff act 1930 or sec 232 trade expansion act of 1962. there's not more or less to it, I didn't want any legal analysis or examination. my paper is waaay more than just determining the acts upon which the export controls are based, but maybe you're just feeling hopelessly overtaxed with basic legal tasks.
maybe you'll be remembering your post, when you're in need of assistance in a totally different law system and foreign language.

@blendedunicorn, thanks a lot, I might've picked up a few good things from there.
sure, this whole issue is def. about contracts with the US gov, but that doesn't free the gov. itself from breaching int'l law. f.e. if the German gov. put up contracts with car dealerships to not import American cars, you could ofc "blame it on the contracts" or the car dealers. but in the end, it would be the Gov. being the subject to int'l law and it would be them that breached rules/didn't comply. but thank you though, I guess my list of legal basis is complete, maybe the US gov will be issuing a statement in the next few weeks and clarifying, how they managed and justified doses to not leave the country. Psaki said in a PC not long ago, that there is no such regulation, but well, then why did Bangladesh received only just yesterday it's first dose:/
Have a good one:)

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pancakes3
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by pancakes3 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:21 am

lol, if you're going to go after nony, you're going to have to do better than that.

lawlita
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by lawlita » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:44 am

I'm not going after nony. I just hope, that he/she/they realizes, that sometimes in life it's better to post/say nothing at all, if you haven't anything useful to say.

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Nony
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Nony » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:21 pm

My point is that this forum isn’t here to provide students with answers for their schoolwork, although it’s true that your question is much more informed than the kinds that have historically appeared here. The forum is generally for advice etc about getting into and going to law school and getting legal jobs, not so much legal content that is going into a specific school assignment for a grade.

Also, to my knowledge the US doesn’t really believe in international law. If there’s a specific treaty or contract that governs this situation that the US has breached, that’s one thing. If the allegation is that the US has breached “international law,” I don’t think the US really accepts that as a thing. (I’m sure this is a small element to what you’re writing about and a lot of this is my ignorance on the subject, but it’s not clear to me what you mean by the government being subject to international law for not exporting vaccines.)

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beep
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by beep » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 pm

lawlita wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:44 am
I'm not going after nony. I just hope, that he/she/they realizes, that sometimes in life it's better to post/say nothing at all, if you haven't anything useful to say.
You are coming in here asking a group of largely-experienced US attorneys to spend time helping you with homework. "Sometimes in life" it's better to be humble and respectful. You don't even have to do it just to be nice. At the very least, do it because it helps you get what you want.

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:51 pm

There’s a trump EO that basically says US should get priority for vaccines. I think it’s more or less toothless, but you should be able to find lots of articles re:the questions you’re raising here in discussions of that EO (which is interesting itself b/c of the authority it claims).

lawlita
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by lawlita » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 am

@Blendedunicorn:
thank you! this explains so much. I was so focused on the Biden admin, that I forgot about the dark time before und repressed the fact, that Trump was president even in a little part of 2021
Also forgot totally about that EO, since it's relevance was questioned back then.
But now it all makes sense. ofc Psaki could say, that they didn't regulate anything. they just left the EO unchallengend and since producers are not eager to provoke hassle with the gov., and risk the gov invoking the DPA (at least until the strained times are over) they comply with the EO.
so my legal basis is in fact just a damn EO based on "just" public health reasons


@Nony:
I wasn't aware, that this forum isn't used for legal debates and that my question could come across as an attempt "to get a paper written". I'd get, if someone blatantly tried to avoid as much work as possible, in our respective forums we too decline help, but from my perspective there is a lot of fantasy needed to construct such an intend. But well, what would life be without some bickery:D
Since I'm interested in Int'l and comparative law and and about to write a doctoral thesis about it, I'd be glad if you could provide me with a proper forum, as you seem to be a law veteran and might have some insider facts.
Also yes, you're absolutely right about the US not being interested in most of Int'l law. They only invoke the rules of the agreements they're part of, when it suits them. Most times only sanctions or retorsion measures will work with countries, that don't abide by the rules (the EU and within GER as well are not innocent!), but often it's sufficient, when they are about to gain something in return. F.e. the US brought a lawsuit against the EU before the WTO "courts" accusing it, to subsidize Airbus, which it recently won and thus gained the entitlement to legitimately raise tariffs (there's also soo much more to it). Since then the US is blocking the courts to be staffed with new judges, so other/further disputes can't be brought before anymore. So it's not that the US doesn't entirely believe in Int'l law but def. does when it's a win-situation for them.
I guess I failed to find the right words re "being the subject to". With that I mean, that in most agreements, treaties etc. you can't be a member as a private citizen or most times even an entity. The rules/laws also can't be applied to you, when you're a private citizen. Only countries as "subjects of Int'l law" (or entities under Int'l law) are able to be part of those systems. So f.e. even if I sold my shoes in country XY in vast volumes for dumping prices and "breaching" anti-dumping laws, it wouldn't be me, being held accountable, but my home country (notwithstanding the repercussions of my home country against me)



@beep:
1st I didn't know, that I had landed in a forum (LAWSCHOOL.life), in which "largely-experienced US attorneys" hang around, who aren't very happy about coming across or even being asked a law question and already feeling distressed and upset because of the prospect, that it could cost them time. but still finding time, to point this out in a post.
I introduced myself and asked very nicely. however you for once are not in the position, to forbid me to then react to snarky comments. I was feeling discontent, after having expected "law friends" showing enthusiasm about the fact, that a foreigner is interested in their law system, as I regularly experience it the other way round, but instead was accused of allegedly wanting to let my paper written. which is also a bold take with the knowledge of what the paper's gonna be about and therefore concluding that the Q after the legal basis (or rather LITERATURE + references for where I can find the answer) is the tiniest part of the paper (though indispensable).

finally: thank you for reminding me, that even in the depths and widths of the anonymous internet, you must not ignore hierarchies. but just to ease your pain a little bit from interacting with an inferior human: I might have written that I'm a law student, but I'm technically not, it just seemed a hassle for me to explain, that the paper I'm supposed to write is an "appetizer" to showcase my proficiency in being able to navigate through and cite English legal literature/references and the ability to work with foreign law systems and that way securing a spot in the professor's program for being supervised in my doctoral thesis. So yes, I recently finished a 7,5 years lasting education, but still and for a long time to come count as a "student". I might lack "large experience" but I don't lack quality.

So hopefully this makes you happy, dear largely-experienced and humble + respectful US-attorney, but don't worry you won't find me here anymore.

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DankHill
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by DankHill » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:52 am

.
Last edited by DankHill on Wed May 05, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nony
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Nony » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:44 am

None of us knows that when you say “law student” you really mean you’re applying for a spot to write a doctoral thesis. In any case, I don’t know what would be an appropriate forum to ask for research help about international and comparative law (those aren’t subjects I have any research experience in) but I wasn’t being snarky when I suggested Reddit. I know they have law forums and a huge reach of posters.

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Hennessy
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Hennessy » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:08 am

haha wow I miss when we would get people like this on TLS

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Hennessy
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Hennessy » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:10 am

lawlita wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 am
@Blendedunicorn:
thank you! this explains so much. I was so focused on the Biden admin, that I forgot about the dark time before und repressed the fact, that Trump was president even in a little part of 2021
Also forgot totally about that EO, since it's relevance was questioned back then.
But now it all makes sense. ofc Psaki could say, that they didn't regulate anything. they just left the EO unchallengend and since producers are not eager to provoke hassle with the gov., and risk the gov invoking the DPA (at least until the strained times are over) they comply with the EO.
so my legal basis is in fact just a damn EO based on "just" public health reasons


@Nony:
I wasn't aware, that this forum isn't used for legal debates and that my question could come across as an attempt "to get a paper written". I'd get, if someone blatantly tried to avoid as much work as possible, in our respective forums we too decline help, but from my perspective there is a lot of fantasy needed to construct such an intend. But well, what would life be without some bickery:D
Since I'm interested in Int'l and comparative law and and about to write a doctoral thesis about it, I'd be glad if you could provide me with a proper forum, as you seem to be a law veteran and might have some insider facts.
Also yes, you're absolutely right about the US not being interested in most of Int'l law. They only invoke the rules of the agreements they're part of, when it suits them. Most times only sanctions or retorsion measures will work with countries, that don't abide by the rules (the EU and within GER as well are not innocent!), but often it's sufficient, when they are about to gain something in return. F.e. the US brought a lawsuit against the EU before the WTO "courts" accusing it, to subsidize Airbus, which it recently won and thus gained the entitlement to legitimately raise tariffs (there's also soo much more to it). Since then the US is blocking the courts to be staffed with new judges, so other/further disputes can't be brought before anymore. So it's not that the US doesn't entirely believe in Int'l law but def. does when it's a win-situation for them.
I guess I failed to find the right words re "being the subject to". With that I mean, that in most agreements, treaties etc. you can't be a member as a private citizen or most times even an entity. The rules/laws also can't be applied to you, when you're a private citizen. Only countries as "subjects of Int'l law" (or entities under Int'l law) are able to be part of those systems. So f.e. even if I sold my shoes in country XY in vast volumes for dumping prices and "breaching" anti-dumping laws, it wouldn't be me, being held accountable, but my home country (notwithstanding the repercussions of my home country against me)



@beep:
1st I didn't know, that I had landed in a forum (LAWSCHOOL.life), in which "largely-experienced US attorneys" hang around, who aren't very happy about coming across or even being asked a law question and already feeling distressed and upset because of the prospect, that it could cost them time. but still finding time, to point this out in a post.
I introduced myself and asked very nicely. however you for once are not in the position, to forbid me to then react to snarky comments. I was feeling discontent, after having expected "law friends" showing enthusiasm about the fact, that a foreigner is interested in their law system, as I regularly experience it the other way round, but instead was accused of allegedly wanting to let my paper written. which is also a bold take with the knowledge of what the paper's gonna be about and therefore concluding that the Q after the legal basis (or rather LITERATURE + references for where I can find the answer) is the tiniest part of the paper (though indispensable).

finally: thank you for reminding me, that even in the depths and widths of the anonymous internet, you must not ignore hierarchies. but just to ease your pain a little bit from interacting with an inferior human: I might have written that I'm a law student, but I'm technically not, it just seemed a hassle for me to explain, that the paper I'm supposed to write is an "appetizer" to showcase my proficiency in being able to navigate through and cite English legal literature/references and the ability to work with foreign law systems and that way securing a spot in the professor's program for being supervised in my doctoral thesis. So yes, I recently finished a 7,5 years lasting education, but still and for a long time to come count as a "student". I might lack "large experience" but I don't lack quality.

So hopefully this makes you happy, dear largely-experienced and humble + respectful US-attorney, but don't worry you won't find me here anymore.
whose alt is this

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pancakes3
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by pancakes3 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:02 am

i think OP was legit, and probably won't come back but:

- this issue is pretty specific and requires actual research
- there probably isn't even an answer that can be articulated concisely, even wrt vaccines.
- the question was poorly framed (partly bc of language barrier, partly bc it's a complex question)
- anyone who can type out an answer on an message board probably doesn't know what they're talking about
- nony's original point remains - nobody is going to do your work for you. this is days, if not weeks of research. like, i billed 3 hrs yesterday on status of service when an e-filing is rejected

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by BlendedUnicorn » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:25 am

lawlita wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 am
@Blendedunicorn:
thank you! this explains so much. I was so focused on the Biden admin, that I forgot about the dark time before und repressed the fact, that Trump was president even in a little part of 2021
Also forgot totally about that EO, since it's relevance was questioned back then.
But now it all makes sense. ofc Psaki could say, that they didn't regulate anything. they just left the EO unchallengend and since producers are not eager to provoke hassle with the gov., and risk the gov invoking the DPA (at least until the strained times are over) they comply with the EO.
so my legal basis is in fact just a damn EO based on "just" public health reasons

on the off chance you come back here, I'm not sure this is the correct conclusion to draw. I'm not even sure your underlying assumption (that there needs to be legal authority to explain what's going on here) is correct. But it should be a good place to start looking, like pancakes said there's a lot of research required here. (of course, I get that you're posting on a message board and not necessarily showing us all your work).

Story
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Re: WTO+Covid

Post by Story » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:49 am

lawlita wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 am
@Blendedunicorn:
thank you! this explains so much. I was so focused on the Biden admin, that I forgot about the dark time before und repressed the fact, that Trump was president even in a little part of 2021
Also forgot totally about that EO, since it's relevance was questioned back then.
But now it all makes sense. ofc Psaki could say, that they didn't regulate anything. they just left the EO unchallengend and since producers are not eager to provoke hassle with the gov., and risk the gov invoking the DPA (at least until the strained times are over) they comply with the EO.
so my legal basis is in fact just a damn EO based on "just" public health reasons


@Nony:
I wasn't aware, that this forum isn't used for legal debates and that my question could come across as an attempt "to get a paper written". I'd get, if someone blatantly tried to avoid as much work as possible, in our respective forums we too decline help, but from my perspective there is a lot of fantasy needed to construct such an intend. But well, what would life be without some bickery:D
Since I'm interested in Int'l and comparative law and and about to write a doctoral thesis about it, I'd be glad if you could provide me with a proper forum, as you seem to be a law veteran and might have some insider facts.
Also yes, you're absolutely right about the US not being interested in most of Int'l law. They only invoke the rules of the agreements they're part of, when it suits them. Most times only sanctions or retorsion measures will work with countries, that don't abide by the rules (the EU and within GER as well are not innocent!), but often it's sufficient, when they are about to gain something in return. F.e. the US brought a lawsuit against the EU before the WTO "courts" accusing it, to subsidize Airbus, which it recently won and thus gained the entitlement to legitimately raise tariffs (there's also soo much more to it). Since then the US is blocking the courts to be staffed with new judges, so other/further disputes can't be brought before anymore. So it's not that the US doesn't entirely believe in Int'l law but def. does when it's a win-situation for them.
I guess I failed to find the right words re "being the subject to". With that I mean, that in most agreements, treaties etc. you can't be a member as a private citizen or most times even an entity. The rules/laws also can't be applied to you, when you're a private citizen. Only countries as "subjects of Int'l law" (or entities under Int'l law) are able to be part of those systems. So f.e. even if I sold my shoes in country XY in vast volumes for dumping prices and "breaching" anti-dumping laws, it wouldn't be me, being held accountable, but my home country (notwithstanding the repercussions of my home country against me)



@beep:
1st I didn't know, that I had landed in a forum (LAWSCHOOL.life), in which "largely-experienced US attorneys" hang around, who aren't very happy about coming across or even being asked a law question and already feeling distressed and upset because of the prospect, that it could cost them time. but still finding time, to point this out in a post.
I introduced myself and asked very nicely. however you for once are not in the position, to forbid me to then react to snarky comments. I was feeling discontent, after having expected "law friends" showing enthusiasm about the fact, that a foreigner is interested in their law system, as I regularly experience it the other way round, but instead was accused of allegedly wanting to let my paper written. which is also a bold take with the knowledge of what the paper's gonna be about and therefore concluding that the Q after the legal basis (or rather LITERATURE + references for where I can find the answer) is the tiniest part of the paper (though indispensable).

finally: thank you for reminding me, that even in the depths and widths of the anonymous internet, you must not ignore hierarchies. but just to ease your pain a little bit from interacting with an inferior human: I might have written that I'm a law student, but I'm technically not, it just seemed a hassle for me to explain, that the paper I'm supposed to write is an "appetizer" to showcase my proficiency in being able to navigate through and cite English legal literature/references and the ability to work with foreign law systems and that way securing a spot in the professor's program for being supervised in my doctoral thesis. So yes, I recently finished a 7,5 years lasting education, but still and for a long time to come count as a "student". I might lack "large experience" but I don't lack quality.

So hopefully this makes you happy, dear largely-experienced and humble + respectful US-attorney, but don't worry you won't find me here anymore.
:roll:

Just to answer your original question, I would look through the Trump executive orders. I’m sure you’ll find things related to export controls.

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