by TandE » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:22 pm
FuzzyDunlop wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:00 pm
Do you do house visits or meetings in-office after regular work hours or weekends?
Almost never
FuzzyDunlop wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:00 pm
1 hour? I know attorneys that can use will drafting software and get it out in well under that time. I know attorneys that don't ever take complicated estates because they think it's an inefficient way of making money. They'll just draft simple wills in high volume for non-english speaking clients (can't use legal zoom). One has a big law background, and says he makes very easy money this way.
With drafting software I can have a first draft ready within 15 minutes. You still need to double-check all your entries (e.g. spelling of names), which will easily add just as much. So yeah, guess it could be half an hour.
Also, I don't do volume work. I could, but I don't. I despise T&E attorneys who provide the same cookie-cutter plan to every client regardless of suitability. Especially if they don't stay in their lane and try to do the occasional complicated estate.[/quote]
FuzzyDunlop wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:00 pm
I know an increasing amount of attorneys that are getting Wealth Counsel and drafting with that too, so they're getting wills and trusts covered.
I've used Wealth Counsel (and I know of several competitors). It scares me, because it allows attorneys to get in over their head. Way over their head.
If you know what you're doing, it's a great tool, though it does have its limitations, and there are some things it just can't do.
FuzzyDunlop wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:00 pm
I didn't like Wealth Counsel and how it reminded me of 2nd rate software from 20 years ago. Like Windows ME or something pre- Windows 98 that was designed by software shops that did niche business/enterprise software.
I don't care about the UI, it does the trick. It's the text I have a problem with. I guess it's good enough for the average attorney, but it can definitely be better. For my personal templates (forms), I've cleaned up and/or clarified plenty of things where I don't like the way Wealth Counsel does it, and I include some extra clauses that Wealth Counsel doesn't have.
You can customize your templates in Wealth Counsel, but every time they update their templates, it overrides your customization. And they'll do that without telling you. Oh, their recent update to adjust for the SECURE Act is appalling. It's minimal tweaking, but I think it's just bad lawyering.
kittykatlaw wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:06 pm
Interesting. I’m a private client associate at a tax boutique. We deal almost exclusively with high and ultra high net worth. In our practice we don’t use any drafting software. I consider the partners I work with to be very knowledgeable and leaders in the field, and they don’t feel comfortable with anything that’s out there thus far.
Yup, I just don't feel comfortable with it. The software is "good enough", but I don't consider myself a "good enough" attorney. My clients pay top dollar for me, and I want to provide top service.
FuzzyDunlop wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:00 pm
the girl I mentioned in a prior post that works 7 days a week. She said they serve "ultra high net worth"
I consider anyone who needs estate tax planning and doesn't need LTC planning to be "high net worth". Of course, that varies significantly from State to State, as MA, for example, still has a $1M threshold, whereas for other people it's the federal $11.58M threshold.
I can't really give a number, but I would say anyone over $50M is definitely UHNW. Generally, speaking, for me UHNW is where 'basic' estate tax planning isn't enough. So where you might need multiple QPRT, IDGT, SLAT, maybe an off-shore structure, maybe some private placement products, etc.
To be fair, clients with lower Net Worth are relatively simple, and can easily be serviced by a decent mill:
Less than $500k, just figure out how to avoid probate (beneficiary designations on accounts, transfer on death deeds), draft a Will for good measure, throw in some POA and HCPs, and you're done. It's easy, and it shouldn't take more than an hour. If they have children with special needs or who are minors, then that might require some more work. Personally, I can count with my fingers how many of these I've had in the past few years, and most of those were relatives. Personally, I don't feel right charging thousands of dollars for an estate plan to someone who doesn't make at least that much in a week.
Between $500k and maybe $2m, LTC is a concern. Typically, some kind of Medicaid Trust to shield the house and some non-retirement assets. I'd also address issues with children, not just Special Needs, but also other issues, such as minor children, drug/alcohol addiction, divorce protection, business succession planning etc. If you include Trust funding (which, IMO, you really should), it could take a few hours... for your paralegal
The LTC planning is simple enough and form documents from a place like Wealth Counsel will do the trick. But it's important to realize it's not just legal work, it's also psychology and counseling. I pride myself on my ability to unearth the family dynamics, and to design a plan that's right for their family. Even though my specialty is UHNW, this has been my main bread and butter, just because it's relatively easy for me to pick up the work and there's sufficient volume to keep me busy.
But I do try to do UHNW more and more. It's a lot harder to pick up, and there are much fewer clients out there, but it's a lot more work, and I find it intellectually challenging, mentally stimulating, and always different. I could have several couples with the same net worth requiring completely different solutions, so that for one couple I may place their assets into two LLCs owned by three GRITS, whereas for another I could be trying to figure out how to use SLATs while evading the reciprocal trust doctrine, and for another I could end up with a QPRT and a CRUT into a DAPT.
I definitely understand why a lot of attorneys won't take these on, and if I think about it, it probably makes more sense to only go for the low-hanging fruit. However, for me, UHNW is the fun part. It's like, Medicaid planning is working on a Ford assembly line, UHNW is building your own hot rod.
[quote=FuzzyDunlop post_id=394256 time=1585879243 user_id=2337]Do you do house visits or meetings in-office after regular work hours or weekends? [/quote]Almost never[quote=FuzzyDunlop post_id=394256 time=1585879243 user_id=2337]1 hour? I know attorneys that can use will drafting software and get it out in well under that time. I know attorneys that don't ever take complicated estates because they think it's an inefficient way of making money. They'll just draft simple wills in high volume for non-english speaking clients (can't use legal zoom). One has a big law background, and says he makes very easy money this way. [/quote]With drafting software I can have a first draft ready within 15 minutes. You still need to double-check all your entries (e.g. spelling of names), which will easily add just as much. So yeah, guess it could be half an hour.
Also, I don't do volume work. I could, but I don't. I despise T&E attorneys who provide the same cookie-cutter plan to every client regardless of suitability. Especially if they don't stay in their lane and try to do the occasional complicated estate.[/quote]
[quote=FuzzyDunlop post_id=394256 time=1585879243 user_id=2337]I know an increasing amount of attorneys that are getting Wealth Counsel and drafting with that too, so they're getting wills and trusts covered.[/quote]
I've used Wealth Counsel (and I know of several competitors). It scares me, because it allows attorneys to get in over their head. Way over their head.
If you know what you're doing, it's a great tool, though it does have its limitations, and there are some things it just can't do. [quote=FuzzyDunlop post_id=394256 time=1585879243 user_id=2337]I didn't like Wealth Counsel and how it reminded me of 2nd rate software from 20 years ago. Like Windows ME or something pre- Windows 98 that was designed by software shops that did niche business/enterprise software.[/quote]I don't care about the UI, it does the trick. It's the text I have a problem with. I guess it's good enough for the average attorney, but it can definitely be better. For my personal templates (forms), I've cleaned up and/or clarified plenty of things where I don't like the way Wealth Counsel does it, and I include some extra clauses that Wealth Counsel doesn't have.
You can customize your templates in Wealth Counsel, but every time they update their templates, it overrides your customization. And they'll do that without telling you. Oh, their recent update to adjust for the SECURE Act is appalling. It's minimal tweaking, but I think it's just bad lawyering.
[quote=kittykatlaw post_id=394526 time=1585958772 user_id=16472]Interesting. I’m a private client associate at a tax boutique. We deal almost exclusively with high and ultra high net worth. In our practice we don’t use any drafting software. I consider the partners I work with to be very knowledgeable and leaders in the field, and they don’t feel comfortable with anything that’s out there thus far.[/quote]Yup, I just don't feel comfortable with it. The software is "good enough", but I don't consider myself a "good enough" attorney. My clients pay top dollar for me, and I want to provide top service.[quote=FuzzyDunlop post_id=394256 time=1585879243 user_id=2337]the girl I mentioned in a prior post that works 7 days a week. She said they serve "ultra high net worth"[/quote]I consider anyone who needs estate tax planning and doesn't need LTC planning to be "high net worth". Of course, that varies significantly from State to State, as MA, for example, still has a $1M threshold, whereas for other people it's the federal $11.58M threshold.
I can't really give a number, but I would say anyone over $50M is definitely UHNW. Generally, speaking, for me UHNW is where 'basic' estate tax planning isn't enough. So where you might need multiple QPRT, IDGT, SLAT, maybe an off-shore structure, maybe some private placement products, etc.
To be fair, clients with lower Net Worth are relatively simple, and can easily be serviced by a decent mill:
Less than $500k, just figure out how to avoid probate (beneficiary designations on accounts, transfer on death deeds), draft a Will for good measure, throw in some POA and HCPs, and you're done. It's easy, and it shouldn't take more than an hour. If they have children with special needs or who are minors, then that might require some more work. Personally, I can count with my fingers how many of these I've had in the past few years, and most of those were relatives. Personally, I don't feel right charging thousands of dollars for an estate plan to someone who doesn't make at least that much in a week.
Between $500k and maybe $2m, LTC is a concern. Typically, some kind of Medicaid Trust to shield the house and some non-retirement assets. I'd also address issues with children, not just Special Needs, but also other issues, such as minor children, drug/alcohol addiction, divorce protection, business succession planning etc. If you include Trust funding (which, IMO, you really should), it could take a few hours... for your paralegal
The LTC planning is simple enough and form documents from a place like Wealth Counsel will do the trick. But it's important to realize it's not just legal work, it's also psychology and counseling. I pride myself on my ability to unearth the family dynamics, and to design a plan that's right for their family. Even though my specialty is UHNW, this has been my main bread and butter, just because it's relatively easy for me to pick up the work and there's sufficient volume to keep me busy.
But I do try to do UHNW more and more. It's a lot harder to pick up, and there are much fewer clients out there, but it's a lot more work, and I find it intellectually challenging, mentally stimulating, and always different. I could have several couples with the same net worth requiring completely different solutions, so that for one couple I may place their assets into two LLCs owned by three GRITS, whereas for another I could be trying to figure out how to use SLATs while evading the reciprocal trust doctrine, and for another I could end up with a QPRT and a CRUT into a DAPT.
I definitely understand why a lot of attorneys won't take these on, and if I think about it, it probably makes more sense to only go for the low-hanging fruit. However, for me, UHNW is the fun part. It's like, Medicaid planning is working on a Ford assembly line, UHNW is building your own hot rod.